There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
The one that smashed into the car window was said to be around 300lbs if I remember correctly. It’s on one of the videos description. I’ll have to search around to find it tomorrow.
(04-13-2022, 08:13 AM)Pckts Wrote: The one that smashed into the car window was said to be around 300lbs if I remember correctly. It’s on one of the videos description. I’ll have to search around to find it tomorrow.
You could contact 'Wishiniya', a new member. He seems to be informed about tigers in northeastern China. In his last post, he mentions a big male recently captured and weighed.
If you want to know more about the 270 kg tiger, my advice is to contact 'Betty'.
(04-12-2022, 06:23 PM)Pckts Wrote: You’d still need real verification of this males alleged weight.
Also, do you have the sub adult Amurs weight claim?
What kind of verification would you need? The biologist himself is on video stating that he knows of a wild male Amur tiger weighing over 250 kg. Isn't that reliable enough?
Also, the other Amur tiger recently captured in Northeast China wasn't a sub-adult, it was a young juvenile tiger aged 2-3 years old. Some reports say that it was 2 years old. I posted several reports on page 171 of this thread, which mentions the young tiger weighed 225 kg.
Here's numerous articles all reporting that this 2-3 year old juvenile tiger weighed 225 kg; The young tiger was named 'Wanda Mountain'.
(04-12-2022, 06:13 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Here's a interview with wildlife biologist & field researcher 'Feng Limin', confirming the weight of a very large wild male Amur tiger weighing over 250 kg!
About 15-20 seconds into the video, Limin states: "The largest male Amur tiger I know of and have come into contact with weighs over 250 kg."
Here's another huge male tiger with a massive skull, from Hunchun Nature Reserve in Northeast China:
Recent camera trap photos and videos from Northeast China are frequently capturing some really large and very powerfully built male Amur tigers. The young adolescent wild male tiger aged 3 years old recently captured in Northeast China for attacking a villager and smashing in a car window, weighed (confirmed) 225 kg as a immature male, when fully-grown, its possible that this young male tiger could weigh 250+kg.
This indicates that Northeast China is producing some of the largest wild male Amur tigers in the world today, along with the huge male tigers from the Khabarovsk region in the Russian Far East. Amur tigers in these regions seem to definitely rival the biggest male Bengal tigers.
Except that wild Amur tigers usually have a more massive skull, larger canines and larger paws than Bengal tigers.
Historically, Amur and Bengal tigers are the biggest tiger subspecies/populations and thankfully both are still alive. Although they are about the same body size, there are variations on the body mass and skull structure: the Amur tiger has a more massive skull, with bigger sagital crest and broader mouth. About the canines, they are equal, as both reach the 7.5 cm in the largest specimens. In the paws, Amur tigers had the broarder ones, but this is in funcion of its habitat, they need it to move on the snow, and by the way I remember an unconfirmed report that Caspian tigers had bigger paws and the largest claws of all populations, but sadly I lost the source of that claim and I did not found it in any of the books and documents that I have, so we can discard it.
About the body mass, definitelly Amur tigers did reached body masses of over 250 kg in the past and we have reliable records about it, however in modern days, and at 2012, the heaviest wild male reported was of 212 kg. However, there are unpublished reports of big males, like the ones that you are mentioning here. As far I know there is the young male of 225 kg, the male of 250 kg mentioned in this video and other report of a male of 270 kg. This looks great for the population, but the problem is that we don't have a real report about them, no document or anything that we can use to confirm them. In fact, we don't know if those are only estimations like in many cases with Bengal tigers and African lions in the news reports and we don't even have personal communications to corroborate.
In order to accept these figures, we need real confirmation of them, if not, I think that we can't use them yet, in order to avoid the inclution of incorrect information in the records.
By the way, I was checking the records of the weights of these two populations (Amur vs Bengal) and I noted that when we separate the old and new records, it shows that the Amur tiger was in fact the heaviest tiger and the biggest member of the Felidae family before to great massacre of 1950 and beyond. Next there is a very simple but information table that I made very fast, and shows that variation. So, in modern times (and overall) there is no doubth that Bengal are the heaviest, but in the past, Amur tigers were on the top, on average at least.
*This image is copyright of its original author
These are "weighted" values, and exclude Sundarbans tigers following Singh et al. (2015).
Remember, the 212 kg wild Amur tiger weighed by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists was a young male aged 4 years old. Not a fully-grown adult male aged 6+years old. Biologists only weighed this male tiger when he was still relatively young. Its likely he weighed well over 212 kg as a mature adult tiger.
Also, I wouldn't say that there's "no doubt" that Bengal tigers are the heaviest wild tigers in modern times. The weight samples of modern wild Amur tigers is far from conclusive. We need a large sample of full-grown healthy adult male Amur tigers to be weighed (from various regions) to get to a more accurate conclusion.
There are some huge male Amur tigers being captured on video/camera traps in both Northeast China and the Khabarovsk region in Far East Russia. We don't know the weights of these big males but they look like they easily rival the sizes and weights of the huge Kaziranga, Dudhwa, Nepalese and Central Indian tigers we see. I know you want and prefer scientific reports, but Feng Limin, a tiger biologist from China did say that he and his colleagues have captured and weighed some big male Amur tigers weighing 250 kg and 270 kg.
It seems to me that big cat weights (at least tigers & lions) is your expertise, so don't you think we need a more reliable and conclusive weight sample of modern wild Siberian tigers to get to a more accurate average weight conclusion??
I'm not saying or implying that Bengal tigers are not the heaviest extant wild felids today, but my guess is (I'm confident) that wild Amur tigers today are just as heavy on average and maximum weights based off the reports, numerous videos and camera trap photos from Northeast China and Russia. So I personally think that both Bengal and Amur tigers are the worlds largest and heaviest extant felids today. I don't think its safe to conclude yet that Bengal tigers are "no doubt" heavier on average than Amur tigers in modern times. We don't know for sure.
I remember some years ago, the Russian biologist Krechmar also mentioned that he comes across the tracks of some giant male Amur tigers in the forest, but these huge males are not captured by biologists and researchers. Alexander Batalov has also found the tracks, tree markings and traces of some very large male tigers in the Durminskoye Reserve.
I don't know the weight of this tiger, but here's a video of Chinese and Russian biologists measuring a wild Amur tiger: (Unknown age & weight)
04-13-2022, 07:35 PM( This post was last modified: 04-13-2022, 07:58 PM by Pckts )
(04-13-2022, 06:44 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:
(04-12-2022, 06:23 PM)Pckts Wrote: You’d still need real verification of this males alleged weight.
Also, do you have the sub adult Amurs weight claim?
What kind of verification would you need? The biologist himself is on video stating that he knows of a wild male Amur tiger weighing over 250 kg. Isn't that reliable enough?
Also, the other Amur tiger recently captured in Northeast China wasn't a sub-adult, it was a young juvenile tiger aged 2-3 years old. Some reports say that it was 2 years old. I posted several reports on page 171 of this thread, which mentions the young tiger weighed 225 kg.
Here's numerous articles all reporting that this 2-3 year old juvenile tiger weighed 225 kg; The young tiger was named 'Wanda Mountain'.
(04-13-2022, 07:33 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Remember, the 212 kg wild Amur tiger weighed by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists was a young male aged 4 years old. Not a fully-grown adult male aged 6+years old. Biologists only weighed this male tiger when he was still relatively young. Its likely he weighed well over 212 kg as a mature adult tiger.
Also, I wouldn't say that there's "no doubt" that Bengal tigers are the heaviest wild tigers in modern times. The weight samples of modern wild Amur tigers is far from conclusive. We need a large sample of full-grown healthy adult male Amur tigers to be weighed (from various regions) to get to a more accurate conclusion.
There are some huge male Amur tigers being captured on video/camera traps in both Northeast China and the Khabarovsk region in Far East Russia. We don't know the weights of these big males but they look like they easily rival the sizes and weights of the huge Kaziranga, Dudhwa, Nepalese and Central Indian tigers we see. I know you want and prefer scientific reports, but Feng Limin, a tiger biologist from China did say that he and his colleagues have captured and weighed some big male Amur tigers weighing 250 kg and 270 kg.
It seems to me that big cat weights (at least tigers & lions) is your expertise, so don't you think we need a more reliable and conclusive weight sample of modern wild Siberian tigers to get to a more accurate average weight conclusion??
I'm not saying or implying that Bengal tigers are not the heaviest extant wild felids today, but my guess is (I'm confident) that wild Amur tigers today are just as heavy on average and maximum weights based off the reports, numerous videos and camera trap photos from Northeast China and Russia. So I personally think that both Bengal and Amur tigers are the worlds largest and heaviest extant felids today. I don't think its safe to conclude yet that Bengal tigers are "no doubt" heavier on average than Amur tigers in modern times. We don't know for sure.
I remember some years ago, the Russian biologist Krechmar also mentioned that he comes across the tracks of some giant male Amur tigers in the forest, but these huge males are not captured by biologists and researchers. Alexander Batalov has also found the tracks, tree markings and traces of some very large male tigers in the Durminskoye Reserve.
I don't know the weight of this tiger, but here's a video of Chinese and Russian biologists measuring a wild Amur tiger: (Unknown age & weight)
When the tiger "Luke" was recorded at 212 kg he was already an adult of more than 4 years, of course that he could weight more but that is just speculation, as he also could weight less, like the "ups and downs" of tiger "Dale", for example.
Afirming that Bengal tigers are the biggest cats in modern days is not a random statement, but a conclution based in the data available and supported by scientists that worked with tigers in both fields (Indian subcontinen and Russian Far East). So, I sustain the fact that there is no doubth about it. By the way, no sample is "conclusive", as all the studies made with cats use small samples and after that they infer the results using what is available, so that is not a valid excuse. In fact, the only thing that I can see and that I stated long before in other posts (I suggest you to read all my posts and not just discuss about the last one) is that there is a tendency in incresing the size of modern Amur tigers, with average figures that change from 180, to 190 and to 200 kg, depending of the samples, year and regions (the figure of 190 kg is overall).
Video and camera traps are not reliable at all, they may be sugestive but there is no proof of its reliability, check this male for example:
*This image is copyright of its original author
All people said that was a huge male of no less than 250 kg, but actually this tiger labeled as PT-85 weighed just 200 kg.
Check also tiger "Luke":
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is when he weighed 212 kg, but I am sure that anyone could estimate a bigger weight for him. So the use of photos and videos to estimate the size is not reliable, unless that you have a point of reference and even then, the estimation will be accurate only for body size, but not for weight.
Maybe because you are new here, you still don't know the several problems that we had in the past with the statements of experts about the weight of they tigers-lions. Some times we can be sure that the figures that they propose are real, but when we confirm them, they were actually just estimations. Check the case of two Amur tigers that were stated to weight 220 and 250 kg in the past and by reputable sources, but after confirming the figures with the persons in the field the real weights for those specimens were 200 and 185 kg respectively! That is why many of us here are not sure to accept these figures of 225-250-270 kg so lightly, unless that we can actually corroborate that the figures are real. Don't missunderstand me, I will be more than happy to corroborate that modern Amur tigers are reaching the weights of the old days, but like Mazák and Pocock, we don't want to make the old mistakes again and we are going to be cautious this time.
Again, the afirmation that Bengal tigers are the heaviest in these days was not made in one day, it took time to reach that conclution and nothing suggest that is different at 2022, unless that we can get the corroboration of the figures that are quoted above. Even then, it will only suggest that Amur and Bengal tigers are of the same size, which is something that we already know. So, for the moment, the only wild cat that reached the 272 kg figure in scientific sources, without been a cattle eater or a freak outlier, is the Bengal tiger.
About Krechmar and Batalov, as far I know they had not captured, measured and weighed any tiger, so they estimations, although respetable, are not usefull. They are experts in tiger ecology and are great sources about that, but for morphology issues we need real measurements and weights, not just visual reports.
Maybe you are going to think that I am too strict and certainly you are not going to accept my conclutions and statements, but I can guarantee you that my attitude is based in experience of previous situations and that is also why Pckts is also very cautions. Let me put an example: let's say that we accept these three weights of 227, 250 and 270 kg, we put them in a document and quote them as source. What do you think that is going to happen when this people quoted came and says that the figures are incorrect, or that are false? Or what happen if they accept that they were only estimations? Where is going to be our reputation? You see the point, if we preach accuracy we need to be the first one in accomplish it, no matter what and proving that we are not biased in favor of one animal or other.
I hope you can understand my point and if you or "Betty" can get the confirmation on the three weights, I will the first one in include the confirmed weights in our tables. And check that I am not saying "my" tables, but "ours", as all this work is the accomplishment of the work of all here in Wildfact, we make a team work, always.
(04-13-2022, 07:33 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: Remember, the 212 kg wild Amur tiger weighed by the Siberian Tiger Project biologists was a young male aged 4 years old. Not a fully-grown adult male aged 6+years old. Biologists only weighed this male tiger when he was still relatively young. Its likely he weighed well over 212 kg as a mature adult tiger.
Also, I wouldn't say that there's "no doubt" that Bengal tigers are the heaviest wild tigers in modern times. The weight samples of modern wild Amur tigers is far from conclusive. We need a large sample of full-grown healthy adult male Amur tigers to be weighed (from various regions) to get to a more accurate conclusion.
There are some huge male Amur tigers being captured on video/camera traps in both Northeast China and the Khabarovsk region in Far East Russia. We don't know the weights of these big males but they look like they easily rival the sizes and weights of the huge Kaziranga, Dudhwa, Nepalese and Central Indian tigers we see. I know you want and prefer scientific reports, but Feng Limin, a tiger biologist from China did say that he and his colleagues have captured and weighed some big male Amur tigers weighing 250 kg and 270 kg.
It seems to me that big cat weights (at least tigers & lions) is your expertise, so don't you think we need a more reliable and conclusive weight sample of modern wild Siberian tigers to get to a more accurate average weight conclusion??
I'm not saying or implying that Bengal tigers are not the heaviest extant wild felids today, but my guess is (I'm confident) that wild Amur tigers today are just as heavy on average and maximum weights based off the reports, numerous videos and camera trap photos from Northeast China and Russia. So I personally think that both Bengal and Amur tigers are the worlds largest and heaviest extant felids today. I don't think its safe to conclude yet that Bengal tigers are "no doubt" heavier on average than Amur tigers in modern times. We don't know for sure.
I remember some years ago, the Russian biologist Krechmar also mentioned that he comes across the tracks of some giant male Amur tigers in the forest, but these huge males are not captured by biologists and researchers. Alexander Batalov has also found the tracks, tree markings and traces of some very large male tigers in the Durminskoye Reserve.
I don't know the weight of this tiger, but here's a video of Chinese and Russian biologists measuring a wild Amur tiger: (Unknown age & weight)
When the tiger "Luke" was recorded at 212 kg he was already an adult of more than 4 years, of course that he could weight more but that is just speculation, as he also could weight less, like the "ups and downs" of tiger "Dale", for example.
Afirming that Bengal tigers are the biggest cats in modern days is not a random statement, but a conclution based in the data available and supported by scientists that worked with tigers in both fields (Indian subcontinen and Russian Far East). So, I sustain the fact that there is no doubth about it. By the way, no sample is "conclusive", as all the studies made with cats use small samples and after that they infer the results using what is available, so that is not a valid excuse. In fact, the only thing that I can see and that I stated long before in other posts (I suggest you to read all my posts and not just discuss about the last one) is that there is a tendency in incresing the size of modern Amur tigers, with average figures that change from 180, to 190 and to 200 kg, depending of the samples, year and regions (the figure of 190 kg is overall).
Video and camera traps are not reliable at all, they may be sugestive but there is no proof of its reliability, check this male for example:
*This image is copyright of its original author
All people said that was a huge male of no less than 250 kg, but actually this tiger labeled as PT-85 weighed just 200 kg.
Check also tiger "Luke":
*This image is copyright of its original author
This is when he weighed 212 kg, but I am sure that anyone could estimate a bigger weight for him. So the use of photos and videos to estimate the size is not reliable, unless that you have a point of reference and even then, the estimation will be accurate only for body size, but not for weight.
Maybe because you are new here, you still don't know the several problems that we had in the past with the statements of experts about the weight of they tigers-lions. Some times we can be sure that the figures that they propose are real, but when we confirm them, they were actually just estimations. Check the case of two Amur tigers that were stated to weight 220 and 250 kg in the past and by reputable sources, but after confirming the figures with the persons in the field the real weights for those specimens were 200 and 185 kg respectively! That is why many of us here are not sure to accept these figures of 225-250-270 kg so lightly, unless that we can actually corroborate that the figures are real. Don't missunderstand me, I will be more than happy to corroborate that modern Amur tigers are reaching the weights of the old days, but like Mazák and Pocock, we don't want to make the old mistakes again and we are going to be cautious this time.
Again, the afirmation that Bengal tigers are the heaviest in these days was not made in one day, it took time to reach that conclution and nothing suggest that is different at 2022, unless that we can get the corroboration of the figures that are quoted above. Even then, it will only suggest that Amur and Bengal tigers are of the same size, which is something that we already know. So, for the moment, the only wild cat that reached the 272 kg figure in scientific sources, without been a cattle eater or a freak outlier, is the Bengal tiger.
About Krechmar and Batalov, as far I know they had not captured, measured and weighed any tiger, so they estimations, although respetable, are not usefull. They are experts in tiger ecology and are great sources about that, but for morphology issues we need real measurements and weights, not just visual reports.
Maybe you are going to think that I am too strict and certainly you are not going to accept my conclutions and statements, but I can guarantee you that my attitude is based in experience of previous situations and that is also why Pckts is also very cautions. Let me put an example: let's say that we accept these three weights of 227, 250 and 270 kg, we put them in a document and quote them as source. What do you think that is going to happen when this people quoted came and says that the figures are incorrect, or that are false? Or what happen if they accept that they were only estimations? Where is going to be our reputation? You see the point, if we preach accuracy we need to be the first one in accomplish it, no matter what and proving that we are not biased in favor of one animal or other.
I hope you can understand my point and if you or "Betty" can get the confirmation on the three weights, I will the first one in include the confirmed weights in our tables. And check that I am not saying "my" tables, but "ours", as all this work is the accomplishment of the work of all here in Wildfact, we make a team work, always.
I agree with your post, you made good points which make sense. But, Feng Limin who's a tiger biologist is on video stating that he know's of a large male Amur tiger that weighs over 250 kg. So that weight is reliable, as it was confirmed by a biologist on video.
But I understand where your coming from, you operate with a scientific mind, you want actual measurements and verified recorded weights on paper.
Don't you think we need a better sample of modern Amur tiger weights though? I think a good amount of weight samples from Northeast China tigers and Amur tigers from the Khabarovsk region would give us a much more conclusive average weight for modern Amur tigers. What do you think?
Did the STP biologists capture and weigh full-grown adult male tigers from the Khabarovsk region? As far as I know, they didn't. They only weighed some male tigers from Primorye, in Sikhote-Alin.
04-15-2022, 12:07 AM( This post was last modified: 04-15-2022, 12:08 AM by GuateGojira )
(04-14-2022, 07:16 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: I agree with your post, you made good points which make sense. But, Feng Limin who's a tiger biologist is on video stating that he know's of a large male Amur tiger that weighs over 250 kg. So that weight is reliable, as it was confirmed by a biologist on video.
But I understand where your coming from, you operate with a scientific mind, you want actual measurements and verified recorded weights on paper.
Don't you think we need a better sample of modern Amur tiger weights though? I think a good amount of weight samples from Northeast China tigers and Amur tigers from the Khabarovsk region would give us a much more conclusive average weight for modern Amur tigers. What do you think?
Did the STP biologists capture and weigh full-grown adult male tigers from the Khabarovsk region? As far as I know, they didn't. They only weighed some male tigers from Primorye, in Sikhote-Alin.
I don't know Chinese, so I need to follow the translations that you have made. But if I am not mistaken, he says that he "know a large male that weighs over 250 kg". I also remember a similar claim made by a Russian expert (Nikolaev, I believe) that mentioned that he did not knew any male over 650 lb (295 kg) and some people interpreted that it means that he did knew a male of that weight and that was the limit, but when I checked the documents of the Siberian Tiger Project I found that they largest male was only 205 kg. So is very important to know if that male "over 250 kg" was actually weighed by Dr Feng Limin or if is just his personal estimation.
The Siberian Tiger Project only captured males in the area of Primorye in Sikhote-Alin, where they operated. The other males that were captured by the Amur Tiger Programme were recorded in the adjacent regions like the Ussuri area, and all of them are bigger than those from Sikhote-Alin. The question is if these are differences are caused by the habitat or ar just the growth recorded in time?
The sample of Amur tigers provided by the Siberian Tiger Project is one of the best, with weights and measurements, the only thing is that is from 1992 - 2005 (with a few others captured between 2006 - 2011, in the same region), so is possible (and this is my hypotesis) that with time the tigers are getting bigger, and that is why there is a tendency to increase the body mass. For example (using the sample of 23 males captured by scientists, all of them healthy males of over 3 years old, sick males were discarded), if we support the idea that areas influence size, the males from Sikhote-Alin had an average of c.187 kg while those from the Ussuri region had an average of c.203 kg. Now if we take by dates, the average for the males (independently of the area) between 1992 - 2007 had an average of c.185 kg, while those between 2010 - 2014 had an average of c.199 kg. So, at the end, it seems that both things are correct, that males in other areas are bigger than others and also that in time the tigers are increasing they size; please take in count that weights are already adjusted for any weighing device, that most of tigers did not included stomach content and that the weights from the S.T.P. are averages from several captures, like for example the male "Dale" which they use a figure of 193 kg for him, but in its last capture he actually weighed 205 kg. I will not be surprised if the tigers from the Manchuria region (north China) are bigger than those from Russia, after all, the biggest specimens of P. t. altaica came from this region.
04-27-2022, 06:02 PM( This post was last modified: 04-28-2022, 06:51 PM by Apex Titan )
A new recent video of Pavel Fomenko (a leading tiger expert, game biologist & chief coordinator of the Amur branch of WWF Russia) answering the question of who is stronger, a tiger or a bear.
Tiger and bear - Who is stronger? "Tiger educational program" Issue 4.
March 24, 2022
"Who is stronger - a bear or a tiger? How many kittens does a female bring and why don't all of them survive? In the fourth edition of the program "Tiger Educational Program" about how small predators become the kings of the taiga."
"In the Year of the Tiger, everything about the kings of the taiga is told by Pavel Fomenko, a man who devoted his whole life to the Red Book cats, the chief coordinator of the rare species department of the Amur branch of WWF Russia."
Questions by the interviewer: (I had this translated by a Russian poster 'Negans')
Tell me why are tigers called the Kings of the taiga?
At the beginning of this interview, Fomenko is asked this question. Why are tigers called the 'Kings of the taiga' ??....
Fomenko states: Remember, in nature there is a pyramid, and a specialized predator (apex predator) at the top of this pyramid, under which everything else (all other animals) are below. So there is a king, and the tiger is the king at the top of the pyramid (food-chain). So maybe, thats why.
He also adds: because the tiger is at the top of the food-chain and pyramid, the whole structure of this pyramid (animals & ecosystem) relies on a stable and healthy tiger population. This is why the tiger is one of the most important elements of nature, this is why we need the tiger. We need the tiger as one of the most important elements of the biocoenosis of wildlife in Far East Russia.
Who is stronger, a tiger or a bear?
Interviewer: I saw that there are a lot of such queries in Google and Yandex: Who is stronger, the tiger or the bear?
Fomenko: Well, you know, judging by the fact that I often find bear claws in tiger excrement, there's the answer for you (he laughs), who is stronger.
Interviewer: Well, basically, in principle its the tiger that hunts the bear like a delicious.... fatty, well, for a delicious fatty steak, or do they have any other conflict situations?
Fomenko: Uh, well, conflicts (fights) may happen, but quite rarely. Such stories are known, but, of course, the tiger hunts bears for a delicious fat steak.
Then at 5:11 in the video, Fomenko states that tigresses with cubs (and tigers in general) are unpretentious, they can sleep, in general, wherever they feel comfortable. They will even sleep in old bear dens, and fresh bear dens and will even pull bears out of their dens, kill and eat them.
Use English subtitles:
Near the end of this video (12:13) Pavel Fomenko says that he observed a case of a tiger that killed a bear and dragged the bears body a kilometer:
The fact that tigers regularly hunt and kill bears, is a clear indication for Pavel Fomenko that the tiger is the stronger and superior beast. For the tiger, as Fomenko states, the bear is a "fat tasty steak".
Fomenko, like other Russian biologists & researchers (Sergey Kolchin and Alexander Batalov etc) often finds the remains of bears (brown bears & black bears) in tigers excrements. When deer remains are often found in tiger excrements, that means that the tiger is regularly hunting deer. When wild boar remains are often found in tiger excrements, that means that the tiger is regularly hunting wild boar, and the fact that bear remains & claws are frequently found in tiger excrements by numerous biologists, also confirms that tigers regularly hunt, kill and eat bears. Recent scientific studies and data also confirms this (Miquelle, Kerley, Matiukhina; 2015).
In addition, Russian tiger researcher 'Viktor Storozhuk' reports that some tigers habitually hunt bears, and prefer killing and eating bears instead of ungulate prey animals:
The first statement (beginning of the video) made by Fomenko basically confirms the information I posted about tigers being regarded as the 'King & Lord of the Ussuri taiga'. And also confirms the statement made by Franz Hafner in his recent documentary (2021) about Amur tigers called: "Amur tiger - Master of the taiga". Hafner mentions that in the Far East of Russia (Ussuri taiga) bears are not the apex predators, because they are hunted, killed and eaten by the tigers. - The regions top predator.
Franz Hafner continues: "In the jungle of the Far East, the tiger is the master."
In the ecosystem of the Amur-Ussuri taiga and Manchurian taiga forests, the Amur tiger sits at the top of the food-chain and pyramid. The tiger is the dominant carnivore and apex predator of these forests and regions. Bears, as Fomenko and various other biologists observe and report, are usual prey for tigers.
Overall, knowing what I know about tigers and bears in Far East Russia, and considering the fact that bears are regularly killed and eaten by tigers in this region, my respect for both brown bears and Himalayan black bears has increased even more. Its very brutal what tigers do to bears in the Russian Far East, and the fact that bears have to live in such a dangerous environment and co-exist with a huge apex predator like a tiger that actively hunts them, demands respect for the bear, no doubt.
Modern extant bears like brown bears have also survived alongside other massive extinct apex predators like Sabre-tooth cats, cave lions, dire wolves, short-faced bears and pleistocene tigers. Quite amazing.
So we have reliable information from 3 different regions which proves that tigers depress the numbers of brown bears in both Far East Russia and in Northeast China, Taipinggou Nature Reserve.
Olga Krasnykh (2018) stated, (based on her observations and the Russian biologists she talked to) that in Primorye, where most of the Amur tigers live, there are not that many brown bears there. But there are a lot of brown bears in other regions of Russia like Kamchatka and Sakhalin which are completely devoid of tigers. She adds, that the tiger is the 'King of the taiga' and expels brown bears from that region:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Interestingly, Seryodkin and Pikunov reported that tiger predation is the main natural cause of brown bear mortality in Sikhote-Alin, Primorye. Recently, (2020) in Northeast China, biologists and researchers observed that a healthy population of brown bears and black bears in the Taipinggou Nature Reserve significantly dropped as soon as Amur tigers started to enter the reserve, crossing over from Russia.
Before the Siberian tiger came to the reserve, biologists and researchers could always detect brown bears and black bears on infrared camera's, but when tigers came, after a few years of monitoring, biologists found that the number of bears was decreasing:
In the Khabarovsk region in Durminsky reserve, where there's a good density of tigers, brown bears are rare in this area and avoid these areas because of the danger of tiger predation. As we can clearly see now, there is a consistent pattern going on, reliable reports and information from 3 different regions (and a country) Primorye, Khabarovsk and Northeast China strongly suggests that brown bears generally avoid areas with tigers to avoid predation by tigers and conflicts with them.
Its easier for the smaller Himalayan black bear to escape from tiger attacks, as they can flee up tree's, spend most of their day in tree nests and even hibernate in tree's. When confronted by a tiger, the Himalayan bear, even a large male bear, will instantly try escape by running up a tree to escape death. But the larger brown bear cannot do this, their generally too large, they live in more open spaces and are a ground dwelling species of bear, which makes them more vulnerable to tiger attacks.
In the Russian Far East, tigers, especially in summer and autumn, actively pursue, hunt and kill bears. Its impossible for brown bears to avoid the active pursuit of tigers, especially in summer and autumn when bears are out in the forest foraging for pine nuts, cones, berries and plants. So the best thing for the brown bear to do is, is to migrate to other safer areas where tigers are scarcer to avoid tiger predation.
Based off the recent evidence and information I've seen, I have no doubts that adult male brown bears are occasionally hunted and killed by tigers. Note, adult brown bears are ranked asprey of tigers even in scientific papers and literature. The Siberian Tiger Center specialists even observed a tiger feeding on the carcass of an adult male brown bear. We know male tigers frequently hunt and kill adult female brown bears, so adult male brown bears must be killed now and then by experienced male tigers.
Recent reliable information (2018-2022) clearly shows that Amur tigers dominate Ussuri brown bears and depress their populations, just like how tigers dominate wolves in the Russian Far East. For a solitary apex predator like the tiger to dominate and depress the populations of both a pack-hunting predator (wolves) and a larger species of carnivore (brown bears) is very impressive and speaks volumes as to what kind of beast a tiger is.
05-26-2022, 04:51 PM( This post was last modified: 11-10-2022, 07:37 PM by Apex Titan )
A brand new article on Amur tigers and bears by Dr John Goodrich (Chief scientist, world authority on Siberian tigers and field biologist). In this article, Goodrich talks about his first-hand experience in the field on this topic.
Goodrich, who found some of the bears killed by the tiger 'Dima', confirms that the tiger hunted and killed huge female brown bears nearly his own size. Dima was a very large male tiger and what shocked Goodrich is that, with only 3 canines, he was able to swiftly kill a very large female brown bear of similar-size with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
Whats amazing is that Dima killed two big female brown bears around his own size, with only 3 canines! Adult brown bears have massive, heavily muscled necks with thick layers of fat, despite this, the tiger was able to instantly annihilate such a large bear with ease. Incredible.
On record, Dima killed 4 adult female brown bears, one young brown bear and an adult male black bear (Chapter 19 study). All bears were killed by Dima when he had only 3 canines. The rest of the bears he killed throughout his lifetime, their remains were found in his excrements. Bears made up 80% of Dima's diet.
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
MAY 24, 2022
In this blog, Panthera Tiger Program Director Dr. John Goodrich transports us to the snowy regions of northeast Asia — the home of wolves, bears, leopards and Siberian tigers. After stumbling upon a shocking tiger kill, he recounts how he began to understand the complex relationship between tigers and bears in this challenging environment. Navigate the snowy oak forests with Dr. Goodrich as he brings to light the important conservation implications of these interactions.
A few decades ago, when I lived and worked in northeast Asia, I was tracking a male tiger named Dima that we had captured and fitted with a radio collar a few months before. He was the biggest tiger we would catch in 20 years of research in the area, and at 455 lbs, the circumference of his head was bigger than my waist and the base of his tail was as thick as my thigh. He had been moving through an area where people had summer gardens and grazed cattle, so I was having a look around to make sure he wasn't getting himself into trouble. But what I found that day blew my mind.
I followed his tracks in light patches of early spring snow. Here - we saw he meandered through a park-like oak forest. And there - suddenly, as he approached the edge of a steep embankment, his tracks became spaced very close together. He crouched into a stalk. And when I looked over the embankment, I was shocked. Before me was a large, partially-eaten brown bear sow.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I jumped down to examine the carcass and immediately noted a single, bloody hole in her neck that was clearly an entry wound. Her tracks showed that she had ambled along the base of the embankment and seemed to suddenly fall down dead, with no sign of the struggle one would expect from a huge tiger killing a bear nearly his own size.
*This image is copyright of its original author
I concluded the bear had been shot and Dima just took advantage of a free meal, but why hadn’t the hunter claimed such a valuable prize? Then I turned the bear over to inspect the exit wound. To my surprise, I found two more entry wounds! I revised my conclusion - Dima had leapt from the bank onto the bear, dispatching her with a single bite to the nape of her neck, almost before she was even aware of his presence (one of his canine teeth had broken prior to our capturing him, hence only three bite wounds).
The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable. I collected some samples and vacated the area, hoping Dima would return to finish his meal, which he did, though it took him several days to devour such a large animal.
Fascinated, I went home and began combing through local literature and speaking with my colleagues on the subject. There were numerous reports of tigers preying on both brown bears and Asiatic black bears, but the relationship, it seems, was not that simple; there were also reports of bears killing tigers. As the years progressed and we tracked both bears and tigers, the picture of a complex relationship emerged.
The largest brown bears - and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area - would usurp kills from tigers (females only) and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!). In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but whenthe tigress returned hungry and the bears stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat.
Once, my colleague Ivan came home from tracking a tigress and told the story of how it spent the better part of a day trying unsuccessfully to pull a black bear with cubs from her winter den.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear.
Why did Dima take such risks? Bears are among the most powerful animals I know, with formidable teeth and claws. Wouldn’t sticking to red deer and sika deer make more sense? While we will never know for sure, I suspect his predation on bears served another purpose than just filling his belly.
Likely, he was taking out the competition - the same animals that might kill his cubs or steal the kills of one of the three tigresses with which he shared his territory.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Understanding these types of relationships is important to conservation. For example, if we are working to recover tigers, what are the implications of bears taking their kills (reduced energy intake might mean lower survival of tigers and their cubs)? What impacts will tigers have on bear (and wolf) populations? Amur tigers have recovered from an estimated 40 individuals in the wild about 75 years ago to an estimated 400 today.
But during that time, for instance, the local wolf population has plummeted, likely due to displacement and predation by tigers. We don't want another species to go extinct due to our recovering tigers. While this has not been a concern because both wolves and bears are widely distributed across Eurasia, it is a concern in the southern region where the world’s remaining 40 or so Amur leopards overlap with tigers.
Indeed, during our work there, a tiger did kill a leopard. Research in India has shown potentially significant impacts of tigers on leopard abundance and behavior, and that will be the subject of a future blog post. But in the snowy forests of Asia, far at the northern edge of the tiger's range, I saw firsthand the dance between two massive predators — bears and tigers. It was a dance that resulted in death, food, struggle — and for me, insight. Now, I could better understand what it means to protect not only tigers, but all animals.
A somewhat accurate depiction of how the tiger 'Dima' killed the large, similar-sized brown bear sow with a single bite to the nape of the neck:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Conclusions:
This article (first-hand info) from Goodrich confirms that the tiger 'Dale' (Dima) hunted and killed huge female brown bears up to his own size (455lbs). What makes this predation feat even more impressive is that the tiger 'Dima' instantly killed such a large brown bear with only 3 canines, with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
It confirms that a tiger with just 3 canines can instantly dispatch a large adult brown bear around its own size and weight! This also confirms that male tigers prey on large adult brown bears up to their own size and weight. Note, one year after Dima's death in the summer of August, 2001, another different male tiger (unknown male) also attacked and killed a very large, full-grown prime female brown bear aged 8-10 years old, and killed the big bear after a fierce battle. Neither of these male tigers, as first-hand reports confirm, were ever "seriously injured" by these big female brown bears they killed. This of course, was a fabricated lie initially made-up by some bear fanboyz in the old AVA forums.
Goodrich confirms Dunishenko's recent statement (2021) that tigers kill even large bears with a single bite to the nape of the neck. Which shows the immense jaw power of the tiger. Goodrich also confirms biologist Linda Kerley's email & observations, in which she stated that she's seen tigers prey on the largest and healthiest female brown bears, and also confirms Baikov's statement (1925) that large tigers hunt and kill (large) bears of the same weight.
Bear specialists hunt large bears up to their own size and even heavier. A tigress (120-150 kg) killed a larger 170 kg adult brown bear (Bromley 1965).
Only the largest brown bears (800+lbs) will usurp kills from tigresses. Note, when Goodrich mentions an incident (gives context) again, like always, it involved a tigress. Interestingly, both the big male brown bear and tigress will try bluff each other, if the tigress's belly is already full, the bear can scare away the tigress, but when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, and the bears belly is full, the large male brown bear will yield even to the much smaller female tiger.
The largest male brown bears, as field research consistently shows over and over again, despite their massive weight advantage, do not attempt to displace male tigers from their kill. They strictly avoid them, its too risky and dangerous for the bear.
Goodrich also suggests that tiger predation on bears could be more than just tigers filling their bellies. By hunting and killing bears, this way, tigers also remove competition and potential threat to their cubs, as its well known that tigers ruthlessly pursue, hunt and destroy their competition. Goodrich's article also confirms what John Vaillant stated in his book about tigers regularly hunting, eating and picking fights with brown bears (dangerous opponents) and brutally dismembering the bears, and killing bears solely on principle (Based on the observations of biologists & hunters).
This article also suggests why brown bears usually vacate areas that are densely populated by tigers. Brown bears want to escape decimation by tigers, (as do wolves) as recent research and information (2018-2022) from Russia and Northeast China shows, tigers reduce the populations of brown bears. The fact that even the largest and healthiest adult female brown bears are hunted by tigers, it would make sense for brown bears to generally avoid areas and regions with a high tiger density.
(05-26-2022, 04:51 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: A brand new article on Amur tigers and bears by Dr John Goodrich (Chief scientist, world authority on Siberian tigers and field biologist). In this article, Goodrich talks about his first-hand experience in the field on this topic.
Goodrich, who found some of the bears killed by the tiger 'Dima', confirms that the tiger hunted and killed huge female brown bears nearly his own size. Dima was a very large male tiger and what shocked Goodrich is that, with only 3 canines, he was able to swiftly kill a very large female brown bear of similar-size with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
Whats amazing is that Dima killed two big female brown bears around his own size, with only 3 canines! Adult brown bears have massive, heavily muscled necks with thick layers of fat, despite this, the tiger was able to instantly annihilate such a large bear with ease. Incredible.
On record, Dima killed 4 adult female brown bears, one young brown bear and an adult male black bear (Chapter 19 study). All bears were killed by Dima when he had only 3 canines. The rest of the bears he killed throughout his lifetime, their remains were found in his excrements. Bears made up 80% of Dima's diet.
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
MAY 24, 2022
In this blog, Panthera Tiger Program Director Dr. John Goodrich transports us to the snowy regions of northeast Asia — the home of wolves, bears, leopards and Siberian tigers. After stumbling upon a shocking tiger kill, he recounts how he began to understand the complex relationship between tigers and bears in this challenging environment. Navigate the snowy oak forests with Dr. Goodrich as he brings to light the important conservation implications of these interactions.
A few decades ago, when I lived and worked in northeast Asia, I was tracking a male tiger named Dima that we had captured and fitted with a radio collar a few months before. He was the biggest tiger we would catch in 20 years of research in the area, and at 455 lbs, the circumference of his head was bigger than my waist and the base of his tail was as thick as my thigh. He had been moving through an area where people had summer gardens and grazed cattle, so I was having a look around to make sure he wasn't getting himself into trouble. But what I found blew my mind.
I followed his tracks in light patches of early spring snow. Here - we saw he meandered through a park-like oak forest. And there - suddenly, as he approached the edge of a steep embankment, his tracks became spaced very close together. He crouched into a stalk. And when I looked over the embankment, I was shocked. Before me was a large, partially-eaten brown bear sow.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I jumped down to examine the carcass and immediately noted a single, bloody hole in her neck that was clearly an entry wound. Her tracks showed that she had ambled along the base of the embankment and seemed to suddenly fall down dead, with no sign of the struggle one would expect from a huge tiger killing a bear nearly his own size.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author I concluded the bear had been shot and Dima just took advantage of a free meal, but why hadn’t the hunter claimed such a valuable prize? Then I turned the bear over to inspect the exit wound. To my surprise, I found two more entry wounds! I revised my conclusion - Dima had leapt from the bank onto the bear, dispatching her with a single bite to the nape of her neck, almost before she was even aware of his presence (one of his canine teeth had broken prior to our capturing him, hence only three bite wounds).
The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable. I collected some samples and vacated the area, hoping Dima would return to finish his meal, which he did, though it took him several days to devour such a large animal.
Fascinated, I went home and began combing through local literature and speaking with my colleagues on the subject. There were numerous reports of tigers preying on both brown bears and Asiatic black bears, but the relationship, it seems, was not that simple; there were also reports of bears killing tigers. As the years progressed and we tracked both bears and tigers, the picture of a complex relationship emerged.
The largest brown bears - and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area - would usurp kills from tigers (females only) and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!). In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but whenthe tigress returned hungry and the bears stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat.
Once, my colleague Ivan came home from tracking a tigress and told the story of how it spent the better part of a day trying unsuccessfully to pull a black bear with cubs from her winter den.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear.
Why did Dima take such risks? Bears are among the most powerful animals I know, with formidable teeth and claws. Wouldn’t sticking to red deer and sika deer make more sense? While we will never know for sure, I suspect his predation on bears served another purpose than just filling his belly.
Likely, he was taking out the competition - the same animals that might kill his cubs or steal the kills of one of the three tigresses with which he shared his territory.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Understanding these types of relationships is important to conservation. For example, if we are working to recover tigers, what are the implications of bears taking their kills (reduced energy intake might mean lower survival of tigers and their cubs)? What impacts will tigers have on bear (and wolf) populations? Amur tigers have recovered from an estimated 40 individuals in the wild about 75 years ago to an estimated 400 today.
But during that time, for instance, the local wolf population has plummeted, likely due to displacement and predation by tigers. We don't want another species to go extinct due to our recovering tigers. While this has not been a concern because both wolves and bears are widely distributed across Eurasia, it is a concern in the southern region where the world’s remaining 40 or so Amur leopards overlap with tigers.
Indeed, during our work there, a tiger did kill a leopard. Research in India has shown potentially significant impacts of tigers on leopard abundance and behavior, and that will be the subject of a future blog post. But in the snowy forests of Asia, far at the northern edge of the tiger's range, I saw firsthand the dance between two massive predators — bears and tigers. It was a dance that resulted in death, food, struggle — and for me, insight. Now, I could better understand what it means to protect not only tigers, but all animals.
A somewhat accurate depiction of how the tiger 'Dima' killed the large, similar-sized brown bear sow with a single bite to the nape of the neck:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Conclusions:
This article (first-hand info) from Goodrich confirms that the tiger 'Dale' (Dima) hunted and killed huge female brown bears up to his own size (455lbs). What makes this predation feat even more impressive is that the tiger 'Dima' instantly killed such a large brown bear with only 3 canines, with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
It confirms that a tiger with just 3 canines can instantly dispatch a large adult brown bear around its own size and weight! This also confirms that male tigers prey on large adult brown bears up to their own size and weight. Note, one year after Dima's death in the summer of August, 2001, another different male tiger (unknown male) also attacked and killed a very large, full-grown prime female brown bear aged 8-10 years old, and killed the big bear after a fierce battle. Neither of these male tigers, as first-hand reports confirm, were ever "seriously injured" by these big female brown bears they killed. This of course, was a fabricated lie initially made-up by some bear fanboyz in the old AVA forums.
Goodrich confirms Dunishenko's recent statement (2021) that tigers kill even large bears with a single bite to the nape of the neck. Which shows the immense jaw power of the tiger. Goodrich also confirms biologist Linda Kerley's email & observations, in which she stated that she's seen tigers prey on the largest and healthiest female brown bears, and also confirms Baikov's statement (1925) that large tigers hunt and kill (large) bears of the same weight.
Bear specialists hunt large bears up to their own size and even heavier. A tigress (120-150 kg) killed a larger 170 kg adult brown bear (Bromley 1965).
Only the largest brown bears (800+lbs) will usurp kills from tigresses. Note, when Goodrich mentions an incident (gives context) again, like always, it involved a tigress. Interestingly, both the big male brown bear and tigress will try bluff each other, if the tigress's belly is already full, the bear can scare away the tigress, but when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, and the bears belly is full, the large male brown bear will yield even to the much smaller female tiger.
The largest male brown bears, as field research consistently shows over and over again, despite their massive weight advantage, do not attempt to displace male tigers from their kill. They strictly avoid them, its too risky and dangerous for the bear.
Goodrich also suggests that tiger predation on bears could be more than just tigers filling their bellies. By hunting and killing bears, this way, tigers also remove competition and potential threat to their cubs, as its well known that tigers ruthlessly pursue, hunt and destroy their competition. Goodrich's article also confirms what John Vaillant stated in his book about tigers regularly hunting, eating and picking fights with brown bears (dangerous opponents) and brutally dismembering the bears, and killing bears solely on principle (Based on the observations of biologists & hunters).
This article also suggests why brown bears usually vacate areas that are densely populated by tigers. Brown bears want to escape decimation by tigers, (as do wolves) as recent research and information (2018-2022) from Russia and Northeast China shows, tigers reduce the populations of brown bears. The fact that even the largest and healthiest adult female brown bears are hunted by tigers, it would make sense for brown bears to generally avoid areas and regions with a high tiger density.
May you please share the link for the article, or the document related to it? Thanks in advance.
(05-26-2022, 04:51 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: A brand new article on Amur tigers and bears by Dr John Goodrich (Chief scientist, world authority on Siberian tigers and field biologist). In this article, Goodrich talks about his first-hand experience in the field on this topic.
Goodrich, who found some of the bears killed by the tiger 'Dima', confirms that the tiger hunted and killed huge female brown bears nearly his own size. Dima was a very large male tiger and what shocked Goodrich is that, with only 3 canines, he was able to swiftly kill a very large female brown bear of similar-size with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
Whats amazing is that Dima killed two big female brown bears around his own size, with only 3 canines! Adult brown bears have massive, heavily muscled necks with thick layers of fat, despite this, the tiger was able to instantly annihilate such a large bear with ease. Incredible.
On record, Dima killed 4 adult female brown bears, one young brown bear and an adult male black bear (Chapter 19 study). All bears were killed by Dima when he had only 3 canines. The rest of the bears he killed throughout his lifetime, their remains were found in his excrements. Bears made up 80% of Dima's diet.
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
MAY 24, 2022
In this blog, Panthera Tiger Program Director Dr. John Goodrich transports us to the snowy regions of northeast Asia — the home of wolves, bears, leopards and Siberian tigers. After stumbling upon a shocking tiger kill, he recounts how he began to understand the complex relationship between tigers and bears in this challenging environment. Navigate the snowy oak forests with Dr. Goodrich as he brings to light the important conservation implications of these interactions.
A few decades ago, when I lived and worked in northeast Asia, I was tracking a male tiger named Dima that we had captured and fitted with a radio collar a few months before. He was the biggest tiger we would catch in 20 years of research in the area, and at 455 lbs, the circumference of his head was bigger than my waist and the base of his tail was as thick as my thigh. He had been moving through an area where people had summer gardens and grazed cattle, so I was having a look around to make sure he wasn't getting himself into trouble. But what I found blew my mind.
I followed his tracks in light patches of early spring snow. Here - we saw he meandered through a park-like oak forest. And there - suddenly, as he approached the edge of a steep embankment, his tracks became spaced very close together. He crouched into a stalk. And when I looked over the embankment, I was shocked. Before me was a large, partially-eaten brown bear sow.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I jumped down to examine the carcass and immediately noted a single, bloody hole in her neck that was clearly an entry wound. Her tracks showed that she had ambled along the base of the embankment and seemed to suddenly fall down dead, with no sign of the struggle one would expect from a huge tiger killing a bear nearly his own size.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author I concluded the bear had been shot and Dima just took advantage of a free meal, but why hadn’t the hunter claimed such a valuable prize? Then I turned the bear over to inspect the exit wound. To my surprise, I found two more entry wounds! I revised my conclusion - Dima had leapt from the bank onto the bear, dispatching her with a single bite to the nape of her neck, almost before she was even aware of his presence (one of his canine teeth had broken prior to our capturing him, hence only three bite wounds).
The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable. I collected some samples and vacated the area, hoping Dima would return to finish his meal, which he did, though it took him several days to devour such a large animal.
Fascinated, I went home and began combing through local literature and speaking with my colleagues on the subject. There were numerous reports of tigers preying on both brown bears and Asiatic black bears, but the relationship, it seems, was not that simple; there were also reports of bears killing tigers. As the years progressed and we tracked both bears and tigers, the picture of a complex relationship emerged.
The largest brown bears - and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area - would usurp kills from tigers (females only) and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!). In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but whenthe tigress returned hungry and the bears stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat.
Once, my colleague Ivan came home from tracking a tigress and told the story of how it spent the better part of a day trying unsuccessfully to pull a black bear with cubs from her winter den.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear.
Why did Dima take such risks? Bears are among the most powerful animals I know, with formidable teeth and claws. Wouldn’t sticking to red deer and sika deer make more sense? While we will never know for sure, I suspect his predation on bears served another purpose than just filling his belly.
Likely, he was taking out the competition - the same animals that might kill his cubs or steal the kills of one of the three tigresses with which he shared his territory.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Understanding these types of relationships is important to conservation. For example, if we are working to recover tigers, what are the implications of bears taking their kills (reduced energy intake might mean lower survival of tigers and their cubs)? What impacts will tigers have on bear (and wolf) populations? Amur tigers have recovered from an estimated 40 individuals in the wild about 75 years ago to an estimated 400 today.
But during that time, for instance, the local wolf population has plummeted, likely due to displacement and predation by tigers. We don't want another species to go extinct due to our recovering tigers. While this has not been a concern because both wolves and bears are widely distributed across Eurasia, it is a concern in the southern region where the world’s remaining 40 or so Amur leopards overlap with tigers.
Indeed, during our work there, a tiger did kill a leopard. Research in India has shown potentially significant impacts of tigers on leopard abundance and behavior, and that will be the subject of a future blog post. But in the snowy forests of Asia, far at the northern edge of the tiger's range, I saw firsthand the dance between two massive predators — bears and tigers. It was a dance that resulted in death, food, struggle — and for me, insight. Now, I could better understand what it means to protect not only tigers, but all animals.
A somewhat accurate depiction of how the tiger 'Dima' killed the large, similar-sized brown bear sow with a single bite to the nape of the neck:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Conclusions:
This article (first-hand info) from Goodrich confirms that the tiger 'Dale' (Dima) hunted and killed huge female brown bears up to his own size (455lbs). What makes this predation feat even more impressive is that the tiger 'Dima' instantly killed such a large brown bear with only 3 canines, with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
It confirms that a tiger with just 3 canines can instantly dispatch a large adult brown bear around its own size and weight! This also confirms that male tigers prey on large adult brown bears up to their own size and weight. Note, one year after Dima's death in the summer of August, 2001, another different male tiger (unknown male) also attacked and killed a very large, full-grown prime female brown bear aged 8-10 years old, and killed the big bear after a fierce battle. Neither of these male tigers, as first-hand reports confirm, were ever "seriously injured" by these big female brown bears they killed. This of course, was a fabricated lie initially made-up by some bear fanboyz in the old AVA forums.
Goodrich confirms Dunishenko's recent statement (2021) that tigers kill even large bears with a single bite to the nape of the neck. Which shows the immense jaw power of the tiger. Goodrich also confirms biologist Linda Kerley's email & observations, in which she stated that she's seen tigers prey on the largest and healthiest female brown bears, and also confirms Baikov's statement (1925) that large tigers hunt and kill (large) bears of the same weight.
Bear specialists hunt large bears up to their own size and even heavier. A tigress (120-150 kg) killed a larger 170 kg adult brown bear (Bromley 1965).
Only the largest brown bears (800+lbs) will usurp kills from tigresses. Note, when Goodrich mentions an incident (gives context) again, like always, it involved a tigress. Interestingly, both the big male brown bear and tigress will try bluff each other, if the tigress's belly is already full, the bear can scare away the tigress, but when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, and the bears belly is full, the large male brown bear will yield even to the much smaller female tiger.
The largest male brown bears, as field research consistently shows over and over again, despite their massive weight advantage, do not attempt to displace male tigers from their kill. They strictly avoid them, its too risky and dangerous for the bear.
Goodrich also suggests that tiger predation on bears could be more than just tigers filling their bellies. By hunting and killing bears, this way, tigers also remove competition and potential threat to their cubs, as its well known that tigers ruthlessly pursue, hunt and destroy their competition. Goodrich's article also confirms what John Vaillant stated in his book about tigers regularly hunting, eating and picking fights with brown bears (dangerous opponents) and brutally dismembering the bears, and killing bears solely on principle (Based on the observations of biologists & hunters).
This article also suggests why brown bears usually vacate areas that are densely populated by tigers. Brown bears want to escape decimation by tigers, (as do wolves) as recent research and information (2018-2022) from Russia and Northeast China shows, tigers reduce the populations of brown bears. The fact that even the largest and healthiest adult female brown bears are hunted by tigers, it would make sense for brown bears to generally avoid areas and regions with a high tiger density.
May you please share the link for the article, or the document related to it? Thanks in advance.
(05-26-2022, 04:51 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: A brand new article on Amur tigers and bears by Dr John Goodrich (Chief scientist, world authority on Siberian tigers and field biologist). In this article, Goodrich talks about his first-hand experience in the field on this topic.
Goodrich, who found some of the bears killed by the tiger 'Dima', confirms that the tiger hunted and killed huge female brown bears nearly his own size. Dima was a very large male tiger and what shocked Goodrich is that, with only 3 canines, he was able to swiftly kill a very large female brown bear of similar-size with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
Whats amazing is that Dima killed two big female brown bears around his own size, with only 3 canines! Adult brown bears have massive, heavily muscled necks with thick layers of fat, despite this, the tiger was able to instantly annihilate such a large bear with ease. Incredible.
On record, Dima killed 4 adult female brown bears, one young brown bear and an adult male black bear (Chapter 19 study). All bears were killed by Dima when he had only 3 canines. The rest of the bears he killed throughout his lifetime, their remains were found in his excrements. Bears made up 80% of Dima's diet.
A Dance of Death: Tigers and Bears Battle in Northeast Asia
MAY 24, 2022
In this blog, Panthera Tiger Program Director Dr. John Goodrich transports us to the snowy regions of northeast Asia — the home of wolves, bears, leopards and Siberian tigers. After stumbling upon a shocking tiger kill, he recounts how he began to understand the complex relationship between tigers and bears in this challenging environment. Navigate the snowy oak forests with Dr. Goodrich as he brings to light the important conservation implications of these interactions.
A few decades ago, when I lived and worked in northeast Asia, I was tracking a male tiger named Dima that we had captured and fitted with a radio collar a few months before. He was the biggest tiger we would catch in 20 years of research in the area, and at 455 lbs, the circumference of his head was bigger than my waist and the base of his tail was as thick as my thigh. He had been moving through an area where people had summer gardens and grazed cattle, so I was having a look around to make sure he wasn't getting himself into trouble. But what I found blew my mind.
I followed his tracks in light patches of early spring snow. Here - we saw he meandered through a park-like oak forest. And there - suddenly, as he approached the edge of a steep embankment, his tracks became spaced very close together. He crouched into a stalk. And when I looked over the embankment, I was shocked. Before me was a large, partially-eaten brown bear sow.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
I jumped down to examine the carcass and immediately noted a single, bloody hole in her neck that was clearly an entry wound. Her tracks showed that she had ambled along the base of the embankment and seemed to suddenly fall down dead, with no sign of the struggle one would expect from a huge tiger killing a bear nearly his own size.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author I concluded the bear had been shot and Dima just took advantage of a free meal, but why hadn’t the hunter claimed such a valuable prize? Then I turned the bear over to inspect the exit wound. To my surprise, I found two more entry wounds! I revised my conclusion - Dima had leapt from the bank onto the bear, dispatching her with a single bite to the nape of her neck, almost before she was even aware of his presence (one of his canine teeth had broken prior to our capturing him, hence only three bite wounds).
The power and skill required to do that was unimaginable. I collected some samples and vacated the area, hoping Dima would return to finish his meal, which he did, though it took him several days to devour such a large animal.
Fascinated, I went home and began combing through local literature and speaking with my colleagues on the subject. There were numerous reports of tigers preying on both brown bears and Asiatic black bears, but the relationship, it seems, was not that simple; there were also reports of bears killing tigers. As the years progressed and we tracked both bears and tigers, the picture of a complex relationship emerged.
The largest brown bears - and we recorded bears with weights up to 800 lbs in the area - would usurp kills from tigers (females only) and even track them from kill to kill (meeting those bears when searching for tiger kills is another story for another day!). In one case, tracks in the snow told the story of a tigress and bear reluctantly sharing a red deer the tigress had killed. The tracks suggested some bluffing and blustering on the part of both species, but no actual fighting. Rather, it seemed when the tiger had eaten its fill for the day, the bear was able to scare it off, but whenthe tigress returned hungry and the bears stomach was full, the bear would yield to the cat.
Once, my colleague Ivan came home from tracking a tigress and told the story of how it spent the better part of a day trying unsuccessfully to pull a black bear with cubs from her winter den.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Dima killed several more bears in the following years that we tracked him, and not all kills were so clean and efficient as my first discovery. At the site of his next kill, another female brown bear, I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood. After the fight, Dima spent four days in the area and completely consumed the bear.
Why did Dima take such risks? Bears are among the most powerful animals I know, with formidable teeth and claws. Wouldn’t sticking to red deer and sika deer make more sense? While we will never know for sure, I suspect his predation on bears served another purpose than just filling his belly.
Likely, he was taking out the competition - the same animals that might kill his cubs or steal the kills of one of the three tigresses with which he shared his territory.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Understanding these types of relationships is important to conservation. For example, if we are working to recover tigers, what are the implications of bears taking their kills (reduced energy intake might mean lower survival of tigers and their cubs)? What impacts will tigers have on bear (and wolf) populations? Amur tigers have recovered from an estimated 40 individuals in the wild about 75 years ago to an estimated 400 today.
But during that time, for instance, the local wolf population has plummeted, likely due to displacement and predation by tigers. We don't want another species to go extinct due to our recovering tigers. While this has not been a concern because both wolves and bears are widely distributed across Eurasia, it is a concern in the southern region where the world’s remaining 40 or so Amur leopards overlap with tigers.
Indeed, during our work there, a tiger did kill a leopard. Research in India has shown potentially significant impacts of tigers on leopard abundance and behavior, and that will be the subject of a future blog post. But in the snowy forests of Asia, far at the northern edge of the tiger's range, I saw firsthand the dance between two massive predators — bears and tigers. It was a dance that resulted in death, food, struggle — and for me, insight. Now, I could better understand what it means to protect not only tigers, but all animals.
A somewhat accurate depiction of how the tiger 'Dima' killed the large, similar-sized brown bear sow with a single bite to the nape of the neck:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Conclusions:
This article (first-hand info) from Goodrich confirms that the tiger 'Dale' (Dima) hunted and killed huge female brown bears up to his own size (455lbs). What makes this predation feat even more impressive is that the tiger 'Dima' instantly killed such a large brown bear with only 3 canines, with a single bite to the nape of the neck.
It confirms that a tiger with just 3 canines can instantly dispatch a large adult brown bear around its own size and weight! This also confirms that male tigers prey on large adult brown bears up to their own size and weight. Note, one year after Dima's death in the summer of August, 2001, another different male tiger (unknown male) also attacked and killed a very large, full-grown prime female brown bear aged 8-10 years old, and killed the big bear after a fierce battle. Neither of these male tigers, as first-hand reports confirm, were ever "seriously injured" by these big female brown bears they killed. This of course, was a fabricated lie initially made-up by some bear fanboyz in the old AVA forums.
Goodrich confirms Dunishenko's recent statement (2021) that tigers kill even large bears with a single bite to the nape of the neck. Which shows the immense jaw power of the tiger. Goodrich also confirms biologist Linda Kerley's email & observations, in which she stated that she's seen tigers prey on the largest and healthiest female brown bears, and also confirms Baikov's statement (1925) that large tigers hunt and kill (large) bears of the same weight.
Bear specialists hunt large bears up to their own size and even heavier. A tigress (120-150 kg) killed a larger 170 kg adult brown bear (Bromley 1965).
Only the largest brown bears (800+lbs) will usurp kills from tigresses. Note, when Goodrich mentions an incident (gives context) again, like always, it involved a tigress. Interestingly, both the big male brown bear and tigress will try bluff each other, if the tigress's belly is already full, the bear can scare away the tigress, but when the tigress returns to her kill hungry, and the bears belly is full, the large male brown bear will yield even to the much smaller female tiger.
The largest male brown bears, as field research consistently shows over and over again, despite their massive weight advantage, do not attempt to displace male tigers from their kill. They strictly avoid them, its too risky and dangerous for the bear.
Goodrich also suggests that tiger predation on bears could be more than just tigers filling their bellies. By hunting and killing bears, this way, tigers also remove competition and potential threat to their cubs, as its well known that tigers ruthlessly pursue, hunt and destroy their competition. Goodrich's article also confirms what John Vaillant stated in his book about tigers regularly hunting, eating and picking fights with brown bears (dangerous opponents) and brutally dismembering the bears, and killing bears solely on principle (Based on the observations of biologists & hunters).
This article also suggests why brown bears usually vacate areas that are densely populated by tigers. Brown bears want to escape decimation by tigers, (as do wolves) as recent research and information (2018-2022) from Russia and Northeast China shows, tigers reduce the populations of brown bears. The fact that even the largest and healthiest adult female brown bears are hunted by tigers, it would make sense for brown bears to generally avoid areas and regions with a high tiger density.
May you please share the link for the article, or the document related to it? Thanks in advance.
I did post the link to the article. Look above the picture of the tiger killing the brown bear, the link is right there.
Also, have you got a picture of the tiger Dima (M20) ?? If you do, can you please post a picture of him. I've never seen a picture of this particular tiger. It would be nice to put a face to his stories.
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
