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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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@peter @Rishi
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/1/5/e1400175 It is a very revealing study in which it has brought scientific support to practical conservation measures to the point of giving conservation value to thousands of captive hybrids (combining pragmatism and scientism). The two continental clades are "separated" by environmental criteria, notably the Amur tiger due to its unique ecosystemic nature. As the habitat fragments and the natural dispersion corridors no longer exist, saving the tigers serving the six continental subspecies would be a multi-pronged challenge, and the three subspecies further south, would certainly find in the near future, extinction in their natural habitat. Small genetic differences between the northern and southern clades may only be the result of evolutionary adaptations to different habitats. Two years ago I became aware of this study and was really impressed by the way scientists have positioned themselves in the face of the practical challenges that conservation of tigers have to face. No matter how new studies may question some connection between some subspecies, the actual and objective view that the genetic diversification found in both wild and captive tigers (including hybrids) will be fundamental in the future composition for tiger survival as a species, it is by yes, something to be celebrated in terms of methodology for the conservation of our remaining tigers.
Like the study led by Dr. Laura D. Bertola (Autosomal and mdDNA Markers Affirm the Distinctiveness of Lions in West and Central Africa), the constant presence of multidisciplinary professionals is providing a very positive association between the several elements that determine the conceptualization of a subspecies. The genetic bottleneck stemming from the Toba eruption makes the subspecies (tigers) issue a minor concern, since chromosomal diversity is naturally reduced due to a very recent existence. Issues related to skin size and pattern tend to be a direct product of environmental needs as a result of a slow adaptation process. Consequently, the tigers went through the natural process of genetic drift, thus having a random component in changing the genetic frequency, removing variety and gene viability. As we all know, both the bottleneck and the founding effect affected the health of the species. Allelic frequencies in the new population may be very different from that in the original population (before Toba), and even the population growing and developing to the present day, all specimens will have the same fixed allele, regardless of whether it is neutral, beneficial or deleterious . Despite the almost 80,000 years, genetic health is still in the process of recovery and gene pooling is necessary for the survival of the tiger.
When a subspecies is extinct, restoration ecologists replace the subspecies extinct by related species in a process called taxon replacement. This study that you published @peter, makes it unnecessary to implement such invasive procedures with unpredictable results; and giving conservation value to comprehensive in situ and ex situ methods is paramount to preserving a very selective species of behavior in the animal kingdom.
It is very good that in these two studies, geneticists do not distance themselves from field conservation and deal directly with the dangers our two biggest cats have to face. From when genetic science began to dictate the direction of conservation, reducing the importance of professionals in biology and zoology, which awaited a practical conciliation, aiming at a uniform and participatory framework among all professionals who will respond to future conservation policies. 
MATIAS
Very interesting contribution to the tiger subspecies issue. Many thanks. Agreed on the points made regarding conservation and the effect of the Toba eruption on tigers (" ... despite the almost 80 000 years, genetic health is still in the process of recovery ... " (from your post). As to your remark on captive tigers. In spite of the efforts in India and Russia in particular, the tiger stuation isn't good. As it will take a lot of time to enlarge the number of wild tigers, captive tigers need to be taken into the equasion. I remember a study in which the value of captive tigers in the US (referring to genes) was discussed. The outcome was that some individuals might contribute to more genetic diversity (of wild tigers). Rewilding is another option that has to be considered. The rehabilitation facility in southeastern Russia shows that orphaned wild cubs can be educated. Same for wounded and malnourished young adults. As far as I know, all graduates but one do very well. Captive tigers is a very different story, but it can be done. The trainers I interviewed thought it would take one generation only. The studies your mentioned seem interesting. Could you post a few links?
I appreciate the words @peter
This small contribution I owe to you making it possible to re-read the study: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/1/5/e1400175 I'm taking the time to read the second study: https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/hand...sAllowed=y Both are in the Post 1741 - is a fundamental reading for all interested in the subject. After all, they make the difference in IUCN resolutions. Dr. Laura Bertola's study is about lions, so I did mention only the title. I value the conservation issue a lot. It is my greatest concern to understand, as broadly as possible, the practical projects and scientific studies that contribute to the survival of our emblematic species. I have a greater focus on African issues - lion themes - I will try to contribute more ... Here I learned many interesting facts, and each Link posted by the foristas allows new angles of vision. Thank you.   *This image is copyright of its original author Bengal tiger in indian zoo from late 50s, to early 60s.  (08-20-2018, 09:32 PM)peter Wrote: 'A REVISED TAXONOMY OF THE FELIDAE' (CAT-news, winter 2017, pp. 66-67) Thanks for that. The subspecies is actually a kinda vague term. For example, tigers of northeast India were much better linked indo-china than central India. Two adjoining "subspecies" literally merge into each other with no definite dividing line...  *This image is copyright of its original author Even among classic Bengal tigers, the tigers residing far south of peninsula can be visibly differentiated from the tigers of Shivalik (Himalayan foothills). The same could probably be said for Indochinese & Malayans. Other than being grouped in conservation units, the recent extensive genome mapping has shown many local variations amongst India's tigers. Some info are gathered here in the In What Groups Can We Divide Bengal Tigers thread. ResearchGate link to original study: High coverage genome sequencing and identification of genomic variants in Bengal tigers. Quote:Bengal Tiger genome sequenced Now, i understand that the ScienceMag link you'd provided clearly says "...differences may have been overemphasized simply owing to fragmentary sampling along a more or less complex cline of variation (4, 13). This was recently illustrated for Bengal tigers, where seemingly clear molecular differences among current Bengal tiger populations (14) vanished after museum specimens from extinct Bengal tiger populations were included in analyses"...suggesting that historical tiger populations might have been much less dissimilar. However most Indian habitats are still surprisingly well-connected even today & with recent increase in number, tigers have been popping up everywhere.  *This image is copyright of its original author Indeed mutual isolation of populations due to poaching in unprotected corridors could be partially responsible, but increase in numbers & better management at landscape level are the solution. The regional genetic uniqueness & adaptions would still have to be protected individually. Whatever intermixing takes place must happen naturally... unless they're a lost cause like Caspian or Chinese tigers. Bottom line, even if all of Mainland Asia's tigers were indeed one subspecies, it won't make any change from conservation standpoint. Older scientific studies get proven wrong all the time, & this is genetics were taking about. IMO it would be an extreme folly to risk polluting the tiger populations. Indian zoos have already interbred tigers from different parts of India & severely botched up future rewilding prospects.
Like himalaya tiger and sundarbands that just variation locality not different subspecies..
Bengal and siberian too still P.t Tigris now
@Rishi
His post 1747 does mention many important aspects to be taken into account for the conservation of unified subspecies. His concern for his Indian tigers is legitimate and of great relevance.
Let me make a few comments: With regard to the bengal tiger and its setting in a single continental species, it does not really seem to me that in the medium or long term something may change in its conservation strategy. Good practices for creating and maintaining functional corridors such as the Arco de Terai, better utilization of the buffer zone, relocation, metapopulation management and other usual practices continue. There is no reason for tigers from other areas to be inserted in India; but Indian tigers may be used for reintroduction in other countries, due to their geographical proximity and population quantification, notably following strict protocols, replacing the current subspecies amoyensis, Malay and Indochinese (without human interference, low numbers do not allow recovery). No scientist or conservation project will propose using tigers from other regions for genetic improvement of the Bengal tiger. You can rest easy, Rishi. The morphological differences between tigers is real, no one will deny this, but as one saying goes: appearances deceive. Genomic variations, both structural and number of copies, are present not only among Bengal tigers, but also in all felines. The question to be discovered as stated in the study of the Center for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CSIR-CCMB) is the functionality of such genetic variations. A consensus that they act directly in adapting to the environment and susceptibility to diseases (local pathogens). But that's just it. Or as we have seen in genetic drift, such variations may be functionally neutral or even deleterious. So safeguarding certain genetic variants when dissociated from full knowledge of their functional status may not be good for the health of the species as a whole (what I mean is that safeguarding genetic purity in isolated specimens in geographic pockets, without genetic enhancement coming from other populations, do not think there's a future). As well said in the study: Epigenetics will try to elucidate the biological changes of non-genetic nature. Genetic science is for experts and I dare not evolve into very detailed comments. The vision I have is positive. As well said by will facilitate conservation actions. Specimens such as the thousands of captive hybrids (tigris x altaica) can be used for reintroduction, realocacion. Even the folkloric tigers John Varty. It is a range of possibilities that opens due to no more division of subspecies, and integrated actions have a better chance of success than singular actions, aimed at safeguarding a micro population of tigers. Worldwide the tiger is the animal that receives the most funding. Many NGOs do desperate actions in isolated pockets where the tiger's presence is uncertain and dubious (Vietnam, Laos). The case of Cambodia is noteworthy, in 1998 Dr. Kristin Nowell stated that Cambodia possessed the second largest tiger population in the world with 700 individuals. After nine years, that is in 2007 the last tiger was seen in that country.
Read this Link: https://www.phnompenhpost.com/national/c...hest-worldthe above study is revealing of why investing money and physical and mental effort in countries that are not prepared to revive their wild population is discouraging. The results are the worst possible. A single subspecies will give enough time and energy to use financial resources and the best professionals in areas truly committed to the return of the tigers in their territory. All UN member countries have "on paper" programs for conservation of wildlife areas, where most of them are only objective means of entering the country in attracting international funding. Wildlife is big business. True conservation practices need to be identified. What we can say of the mythical tiger Amoyensis - we can rely on the numbers informed by the Chinese conservation. As far as I know, to date no area has been effectively protected in China to receive any reintroduction of tigers. The Loahu Valley Conservancy appears to be only an outside arm of the growing Chinese tiger breeding industry for the bone and derivative, aiming to improve the country's image of conservation issues. As for the Malaysian tiger, I see more possibilities of using Sumatran tigers to retrieve them than the other way around. How conservation allows us Countless surprises, the project of Mr. Tomy Winata is the greatest conservation success for the tigers of this island. In this accelerated process of extinction that the global nature experiences, certain practices become essential in the formatting of global actions against the loss of species. Unfortunately under this process, many subspecies may be lost. We need more and more global policies connected with what can be done, and the fragile conceptualization of certain subspecies should not be an obstacle to these actions. The biggest concern is saving the tiger as a species. And it is not by chance that many scientific studies are presenting results that do not offer in a negative way obstacles to its conservation.
@peter on carnivora was going on a debate about gaur and buffaloes versus tigers. Do you know anything about this specific subject? What chance a tiger has a against a buffalo face to face?, and interactions between the two?
 (08-29-2018, 03:23 PM)Rishi Wrote: From contemporary accounts, water buffalo were the most feared animals of the forests they were found in, still are. Unlike the shy gaurs, they're aggressive & vindictive, known to chase down tigers trying to call it a day. Yes, I also think that wild buffaloes are harder to be killed than gaur because they are more organized, loyal to each other and have better group defense. If one of the buffaloes from the herd is attacked by tiger the others will help it, while I have doubts that gaurs will help to the victim so wholeheartly. A couple of years ago PC or Guate Joyra posted here comparable image of gaur and cape buffalo, No 45: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-all-abo...rus?page=3 This image was reposted in Russian-speaking web and cause some discussion. Somebody noticed that gaur despite being larger and more massive than the buffalo actually has much thinner neck and throat, especially in the aria of the first vertebreas close to skull. Tiger if open widely his mouth is capable to strangulate by throat bite an adult female or subadult male gaurs, and they are quite helpless as we can see from this video: So probably from all big herbivores the gaur is the only one which can be strangulated by classical throat bite. Despite his massive muscular body gaur has a weak point - this creauture is created to be hunted by predators. Of course this is possible only in case of unexpected attack, if gaur knows about the presence of a tiger and turn face to face toward him most probably tiger will withdraw from attack. Tiger have relatively larger brain than lion and is capable of "revenge" behavior. If during the struggle with gaur the tiger is slightly wounded sometimes he became determinated to kill the animal at "any coast", only because the herbivore cause him some pain or resistance. So in such cases the cat stuck to herbivore for several days and start hunting it down and weakining by prolonged hamstringing. (08-29-2018, 12:28 PM)paul cooper Wrote: @peter, on carnivora was going on a debate about gaur and buffaloes versus tigers. Do you know anything about this specific subject? What chance a tiger has a against a buffalo face to face?, and interactions between the two? THE ADVANTAGE OF READING - 1 This thread ' ('On the edge of extinction - part a - the tiger') has a lot of information about interactions between tigers and large herbivores in India. The best way to find an answer to the question, therefore, is to read the thread. You can also decide to buy old books written by those who witnessed incidents often discussed by posters. Visit the site 'Tiger Hunting Books' and buy a few. Safari Press also has a few good books. Another option is the Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society (JBNHS). It's a free ride, but it will take a lot of time. In his letters to this journal, R.C. Morris wrote about fights between tigers and gaurs in southwestern India. Kenneth Anderson is known for his hunts on man-eating leopards and tigers in southern India, but he also knew a lot about other animals. One of his stories is about a lengthy fight between a male tiger and and old male gaur. The tiger was killed. G.H. Knowles wrote about tigers and elephants in northern India. His book ('In the grip of the jungles', 1932) also has a story ('The lame ghost bull') about a male tiger luring (...) a very large buffalo by imitating a challenger. In spite of his great size, the tiger quickly killed the bull. Knowles witnessed the incident himself: " ... but here, enacted in front of us, is a case of a tiger actually calling out a wild bull, resorting to every trick - even to the raising of the dust - to perfect his camouflage! I should never have believed it, had I not been an eye-witness to such a feat this afternoon ... " (pp. 319-320). Here's the title page of the book (a Natraj reprint) again:  *This image is copyright of its original author I also posted more than once about the book 'Tiger und Mensch', written by Bengt Berg and translated into Dutch. It was published in Amsterdam in 1943 (during the Second World War). The book has a number of great photographs of wild animals, which was quite something in that period. One of posts on that book has a photograph of a buffalo killed by a tiger:  *This image is copyright of its original author In another book written by Bengt Berg, 'Meine Jagd nach dem Einhorn', published in Frankfurt am Main in 1933 (Germany), a very large tiger from Bhutan features. The quote below (in German) is from that book: " ... Warum seine Horner (referring to the wild water buffalo) der Schrecken des Tigers sind? Weil er die einzige im Dschungel ist, der die Courage hat, sich ohne Zaudern auf den Tiger zu sturzen, ihn uberall zu verfolgen, ..., und ihn zu blutigen fetzen zu zertrampeln. Wenn Jager einen Tiger angeschossen haben und nicht wagen ihm in den Dschungel nachzugehen, pflegen sie eine Herde schwarzer Buffel auf seine Spur zu treiben, auf das sie Den Tiger zu Tode hetzen. Und sie tun es. Das schliesst nich aus, das er Tiger gibt, die selbst einem so kapitalen Buffel wie diesem hier (referring to a great photograph of a very large wild male water buffalo in his book) uber sind, falls der Tiger nur dazu kommt, den Buffel im Nacken zu packen, ehe er selber das Horn in der Seite hat. Aber das vermag nur ein sehr starker Tiger, und die sind selten. Hier im Dschungel weiss ich von einem, der es fertig bringt. Aber er sieht gar nicht ein gewohnlicher Tiger aus. Er ist ein Ungeheuer ... " ('Meine Jagd auf die Einhorn', pp. 149-150). The tiger known as 'The killer of Men' from Bhutan was the only one able to kill large male water buffalos. It was an exceptional individual easily dwarfing the largest tiger Berg shot in Bengal. That male was 565 pounds. When Berg saw the Bhutan tiger, he was amazed: " ... ich wusste sofort, das dies der grosste Tiger sei, den kennenzulernen ich je die Ehre gehabt hatte. Jedesmal, wenn er zum Vorschein kam, sich wie eine quergestreifte Schlange durch das Gras windend, schien es mir, als wollte sein Rucken kein Ende nehmen. Und als er dann endlich lauschend heraustrat und in einer Lichtung zwischen den Baumstammen stehen blieb, so dass man den ganzen Korper sehen konnte, war er doch nicht die Lange, die mir vor Staunen den Atem raubte, sondern die Breite, die Schwere, der Umfang dieses Nackens wie von einem Stier, dieser keinem anderen Wildtier gegebenen Schulter, dieses ganzen gewaltigen Rumpfes und endlich dieses unerhorten Kopfes mit den schwarzen Hieroglyphen um das sachte fauchende Maul ... " (pp. 179). This tiger, of which a photograph has been posted, was a wild buffalo specialist. He didn't hunt calves or females, but bulls only. One day, Berg found a wild male buffalo bull: " ... Es war ein sehr grosser Buffelstier, und er lag auf der Seite, den Kopf unter sich und die Horner im Boden. Der Tiger hatte ein Stuck der Lende gefressen. Sonst schien der Buffel unversehrt. Es sah aus, als hatte der Tiger ihm mit einem einzigen Griff den Stiernacken gebrochen und den schweren Korper gerumgeworfen. Ein Tiger, der so leicht einen Buffel von etwa tausend Kilo handhaben konnte, musste ungeheuere Krafte besitzen ... " (pp. 169). In another paragraph, Berg describes how the tiger dragged another male water buffalo he had killed into dense cover. The distance he covered was about 100 yards. I'm not saying this bull also was 2 000 pounds, but he must have been close. According to Berg, who saw a number of bulls killed by this tiger, he only killed the largest and biggest bulls. Every bull was killed in the same way. Here's a photograph of a wild male buffalo from the book. Berg was proud of it. He was one of the first who took photographs of wild animals:  *This image is copyright of its original author THE ADVANTAGE OF READING - 2 Over the years, I bought hundreds of books. In many of them, you'll find first-hand information about incidents that happened a long time ago. When you read one after the other and make notes, you'll learn a thing or two about those who make their home in the natural world (and those who saw them). Here's a few things I noticed. 2a - Destruction After fire-arms had become available for many, the great turkey-shoot began. In Asia, the destruction of the natural world started about halfway the 19th century (1840-1860). About fifty years later, hunters in British India thought severe regulation was needed fast. This although it still had a lot of forest in that period. Wiele, regarding the situation in 1900-1910, wrote he was able to walk for weeks without seeing a soul in southern India. In Manchuria and southeastern Russia, devastated by colonists, hunters and bandits, Dersu (in 'Dersu the trapper', written by V. K. Arseniev) thought it would all be gone in one or two decades. Here's the cover of the book (reprint):  *This image is copyright of its original author And a close call it was. According to Kaplanov (1948), only 20-40 tigers were left in the thirties of the last century. Amur tigers most probably were saved by the Second World War, when the USSR closed its borders. Seen in this light, that war was a miracle. Although reserves and serious protection resulted in a come-back after the war had been ended, the effects of the unslaught are still visible. Not one of the wild male Amur tigers captured in the last 26 years even approached 500 pounds. Individual variation, typical for many wild tigers, also seems to have disappeared. Were tigers hunted a century ago really larger than those of today? Goodrich has serious doubts. I prepared a long post about the size of wild Amur tigers a century ago and today. Everything I found suggests there really was a difference between then and now. 2b - Behaviour Wild animals sharing a habitat maintain relations. A century ago, wild people living in the forest often knew about these relations and they informed others. Hunters in particular often showed interest. Kenneth Anderson was one. In his turn, he informed his readers. If you want to know about the way wild animals interact, therefore, you need to read books. I would recommend books written by hunters a long time ago. When you've read many books, a picture emerges. You start to see patterns, but also know about details. Based on what I read and heard, I'd say that adult will mammals all have well-developed characters. Those who lived in extended forests for a considerable period of time a long time ago, like forest officers or hunters, knew about the habits of species. They also knew about individuals, especially those who developed a dislike for humans. Large carnivores were considered dangerous, but forest officers and hunters knew that herbivores often compared in that respect. Some of the male buffalos and elephants they knew really hated tigers or humans. What I'm saying is that good info is important when you debate hypothetical confrontations between carnivores and herbivores. Same for overview. You can only get to overview if you invest time in reading. You also need to have a database. Things always are a bit different than you think. Let's take elephants. In Africa, they attack and even kill rhinos and buffalos at times. They also kill quite a few humans. In India, on the other hand, elephants avoid rhinos, not to say they fear them. They also avoid bears. A question of courage? No. Bull elephants and tigers clashed two hundred years ago, they clashed in the days of the British Raj and they're still at it today. For elephants, tigers are way more dangerous than sloth bears. So what's going on here? When you read books, you have to remember that there is a difference between then and now in many respects. A century ago, hunters saw the remnants of a disappearing world. They focused on details. Biologists today are not interested in anecdotes. They go for general rules in order to help those involved in conservation and management. This is needed to save species walking the edge, like tigers. Completely different perspectives. DEBATES ON HYPOTHETICAL CONFRONTATIONS Adult male brown bears in the Russian Far East average about 260-270 kg. At that weight, protein is the best way to keep fit. Although they're faster and more agile than many think, it takes a lot of energy to hunt. A bear might get lucky and kill a large deer or wild boar, but hunting for a living consumes too much energy. The balance between investment and return isn't favourable. Not for adult male brown bears. Energybalancewise, cleptocracy is more interesting. The Russian Far East offers prospects, but there are limits. Big male bears could confiscate kills of adult male Amur tigers, but research says it doesn't happen often. Too risky. This means they have to do vegetables and the occasional tiger kill. In winter, when deep snow affects movement, most brown bears hibernate. Non-hibernating brown bears seldom survive winter:  *This image is copyright of its original author The Russian Far East has few large herbivores. Adult male tigers average 390-430 pounds. They need to hunt a medium-sized animal about once every two weeks or so. Medium-sized prey animals are faster than large herbivores. Some, like wild boars and bears, also are well-armed. Not a great prospect, but they learned to survive doing it that way and their body adapted. Amur tigers are large, but not as robust as in India. Males in particular, although large-skulled, seem very leg-orientated:  *This image is copyright of its original author Just south of the Himalayas, tigers can hunt animals of all sizes. Energybalancewise, hunting large herbivores would be the most efficient method to keep fit. For this reason, male tigers in particular tigers will try to progress from small to large over time. Although many perish in fights with large animals, most do not. Food has an effect on size in brown bears. In tigers, it isn't different. Size often affects the outcome of fights. Big tigers, for this reason, breed more often than small tigers. Over time, this will result in higher averages. Himalayan tigers are the largest and heaviest wild big cats today. This is a male from Banke (Nepal):  *This image is copyright of its original author Hunting large and dangerous animals isn't easy. It takes skill. Skill is a result of practice and learning. In order to learn, hunters need to survive confrontations not going their way. This is why old tigers often are elusive and wary animals. Not seldom, they developed into specialists. Tigers hunting bears often are experienced males. Same for tigers hunting large herbivores. Tigers hunting young elephants and rhinos have to be able to deal with adult females as well. Over time, chances are that some individuals could progress from youngsters to adult females. The info I found in books strongly suggest that nothing can be excluded. The 'Killer of Men' from Bhutan only hunted large wild male buffalos close to 2 000 pounds. I don't doubt that others specialize on gaur, elephant or wild boars. All-out fights between tigers and large herbivores often are a result of a failed hunt. Fights between adult male tigers and adult male brown bears in the Russian Far East, on the other hand, seem to be a result of confrontations at kill sites. It isn't about food, but ownership. Biologists never found evidence of an adult male brown bear killed by a tiger. That, however, doesn't mean it never happens. Based on what I saw in captive animals, I'd say most Amur tigers would be willing to give it a try, especially if they dislike their opponent. Fueds seem to fit tigers and they can last for a long time. Seen in this perspective, one could say that fights are mere phases. Wild tigers do not seem different in this respect. Umarpani and the two males he later killed met many times. Umarpani didn't seem larger and he also didn't dominate the fights that were seen by some. In spite of that, he came out on top in the end. What I saw in captive tigers suggests the outcome could have been a result of character. Aggression didn't seem as decisive as grid and being able to get to the right decisions at the right time. A bit like in humans, so it seems. The difference is that tigers are heavily armed. One mistake could be fatal. Coincidence, therefore, is important. Example. Tiger 'Corbett' twice killed a male tiger. Varty thought he was quite a fighter, but it is a fact he had been very lucky on two previous occasions and one of the tigers he killed was fast asleep when he arrived to say goodbye. Wild male tiger 'Uporny', a youngish adult, was killed by an unknown male. Those who saw him first said there were no traces of a fight. This means he was surprised and quickly executed. I wouldn't invest a lot of time in debating posters saying things are like this or that. There are no rules when life it at stake. The outcome of fights is unpredictable and there's no such thing as species-related ability. Every species prefers some methods over others, but I don't think methods are decisive. A serious fight always is personal. Same for old male tigers hunting large herbivores: it can go both ways. It seems specialists often develop a species-related method.  (08-30-2018, 09:40 AM)johnny rex Wrote: The other day you uploaded a picture of a particular Asiatic lion with huge head in an Indian zoo, if I remember correctly it was a vintage pic. Do you still remember in what thread did you posted the picture @peter ? My guess is the Indian lion thread. If not, let me know.  (08-30-2018, 09:27 AM)Wolverine Wrote:(08-29-2018, 03:23 PM)Rishi Wrote: From contemporary accounts, water buffalo were the most feared animals of the forests they were found in, still are. Unlike the shy gaurs, they're aggressive & vindictive, known to chase down tigers trying to call it a day. @Wolverine : The tiger, having a relatively larger brain than lion, able to have a "revenge behavior" ? Any dog you hurt will remember what you have done to it and will wait the right moment to bite you. And you think as I do that a wild tiger is above the domestic dogs as concerns the intelligence, the struggle for life spirit. So what do you call the "revenge behavior" ? Any big cats teamer abusing a felid will expect to suffer a "revenge behavior" one day. The fighting spirit ? The fury that took over the tiger against a powerful opponent ? The lions are also able to feel it. Any mammal predators on Earth by the way. And as concerns the lions, the social wild cats, we know that the males don't never stop to wait the right moment to push over one or several dominant males. To be able to wait the right moment to strike is very near of what you call the "revenge behavior". "Relatively larger brain"... OK you think to the 16% more. Thus, a little bit more. Do you know these famous "16% more" involve ? Can you show me an account, only one account, claiming that the tiger's hunting are the fact of a more brainier hunter than the lions ? Individually, the tiger is perhaps the most accomplished hunter you can admire. But, among felids ( I don't consider the wild canids), lions are not bad too, as social hunters. Each felid its specificity. (08-30-2018, 12:27 PM)Spalea Wrote: So what do you call the "revenge behavior" ? Ok buddy, I'll tell you. As one zoologist - a friend of mine said: "Some male lions kill hyenas. Tiger however can intentionally by prolonged effort destroy and wipe out entire specie from his territory - grey wolf in Russian Far East, by hunting down and discovering all canids including cubs whenever they hide. Amur tiger is applying a genocide towards grey wolves in Rusian Far East, however lions are not inclined to destroy all hyenas or other competitors in their domain because they are not capable of such prolonged systematic reasonable efforts. Some male lions simply destroy hyenas appearing in the front of their eyes, but if the enemy or competitor is not in the front of their eyes lions simply forget about him. I'll describe two cases of revenge behavior of tiger on which the lion in my opinion is not capable. 1. Jim Corbett describes a case when tiger after attacking a herd of domestic buffaloes 5-6 strong got a injury because animals protected themselves fiercly. After the tiger was injured he got mad to the buffaloes for the resistance they applied to him and started to hunt down and kill all animals from the herd one by one in continuation of many hours and many miles until finally he killed all the buffaloes who enraged him and dared to resist. 2. Johh Valiant, author of the book "Tiger" describes a documentary case from 90's when a male tiger from Russian Far East was hunting deliberately one particular man (poacher) who previous years try to shoot the tiger unsuccefully and injured the cat several times. This tiger ignored all other hunters and people in the forest and tracked down this particular person for many weeks until finaly killed the man. I have never heard of such of behavior in lions. I agree with you that social animals and more specialy predators who hunt collectively in groups as a rule should be smarter and should have more sofisticated brains than the solitary hunters, but this is not the case with the lion and the tiger. |
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