Nkuhuma Pride

[Duco Ndona]

(02-24-2024, 03:24 AM)NLAL11 Wrote: @Duco Ndona You think lions think of takeovers as 'epic'? This isn't the Lion King dude. And lions don't have imagination. Seriously. When humans started to develop imagination was when they truly started to move away from the animal kingdom.

" Unless you wants to argue that someone that is illiterate or not a brilliant inventor isnt sentient."
Where did I say that? I was merely giving well-known examples of where humans have deviated from natural instinct.

" And offcource lions ponder the why of their actions."
No, not of course. Nonsense. You think a dog 'ponders' why it chases after rabbits? You think a bird 'ponders' why it builds nests? You think an elephant 'ponders' why it strips the bark from one tree but not another. I'll answer that whole paragraph with two words. Natural selection. The male lions that don't take the risk to take over a pride (mostly) don't pass on their genes. The males that take the risk, do. They are not aware of why they do it. This is literally why males of almost all species fight for mating rights.
 
"In any case he has to weigh the immidiate instinct of self preservation versus a chance to satisfy the mating instinct. Which is sentience."
Animals, nor people, 'weigh' instincts. To weigh two things you need to be aware of them, and animals are not aware of their instincts. Most humans are only aware of certain instincts because a whole series of very intelligent people have done tonnes of research and told us about them. Even then, most people aren't aware of why they eat crappy food (instinct to store up on fat) or gossip about people in their social circle (community-wide reputation policing). And you think a lion is aware of its instincts? Yes, weighing two options is sentience. But lions don't that.

I really doubt you have spend even two seconds studying animals if you believe they really behave like that. We have seen plenty of times that take overs arent as simple as one group just barging in on some other lions territory and being forced to fight by their own instincts even if it means certain death as if the instinct of self preservation just suddenly stops existing. And again, lionesses are rarely present during a take over and if they are, them being in the mood for mating is even rarer. So by your logic, how can a male be driven by the instinct to reproduce during such fights.



And no, you havent given any examples of humans deviating from their instinct. All you are doing is shift the goalpost by claiming animals lack abilities that they have already well demonstrated to have. 

Quote:Go read my messages again. I agreed that lions (and other animals) can feel emotions. Where did I say that animals cannot have personalities, feelings or intelligence? But these things are not sentience. They are not self-awareness, cognitive thought, or imagination.

Not sure what gives certain animals like pigeons the ability to count, as I haven't read up on it. Lions can't count though.

To a certain extent, yes, morality is subjective. But not always. One form of moral superiority or inferiority would exist on an axis of selfishness to selflessness. A more selfless person is more likely to sacrifice themselves for others. A more selfish person is more likely to spare themselves at the expense of the other people. Of course certain animals do demonstrate altruism, of a kind. Humpback whales will defend other marine animals from orcas, with no understandable benefit to themselves. Though it is difficult to say if true altruism exists. A lion's willingness to defend its pride or coalition members or cubs, which is an instinct that most social animals have, is actually a form of 'selfishness', as it betters their own survival, or the survival of their genes. A mother lioness fiercely defends her own cubs, because a lioness that does not, does not pass on her genes. So the adaptive behaviour is passed down as instinct.
 
The thing is, you're all talking about her 'sacrificing' herself when the truth is none of us actually know what happened. It is perfectly possible, in fact most likely, that RN's death gave the subs a chance to escape. But that does not mean she sacrificed herself. As lions are not capable of doing this. More likely she got surrounded and was unable to escape, seeing as she was so outnumbered. Every animal, including a mother lioness, will do everything it can to survive. Sacrificing themselves completely goes against literally the strongest, most powerful instinct any animal, including humans, has.
 
" nothing wrong with saying this IMO"
Well, I disagree. Obviously

You are kinda contradicting yourself here. First you point out that there are indeed instincts that leads to alruism and self sacrifice. But then you claim it does not happen and every event has somehow be misinterpreted even though there have been plenty of cases where animals have thrown themselves into danger to protect their offspring and werent just caught fleeing. 


And if self preservation was indeed the strongest most powerfull instinct. Then why are so many animals risking their lives for territory and mating opportunities. What was for example the late othawa male thinking when he invaded Birmingham Boy territory for mating. Even though he was perfectly safe staying with the Mangheni. Reply