Ngandong Tiger (Panthera Tigris soloensis)

[smedz]

(02-28-2019, 12:59 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(02-27-2019, 07:23 AM)smedz Wrote:

(02-27-2019, 07:20 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(02-26-2019, 07:52 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-11-2019, 01:10 AM)smedz Wrote: After hearing about the Ngandong tiger, I thought this animal deserved it's own thread. Many questions an average person would have are 

1. How big was it? 
2. What was on it's menu? 
3. Why was it so big? 
4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please) 
5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered? 

What are all of your thoughts?

The giant Sonda tiger is an amazing re-discovery and the credit goes to the Dr Heltler and Volmer, which started an study about predation and presented this forgothen subspecies. Latter in the AVA forum I started an investigation and found much more information in documents and other posters started sharing they data.

Here in WildFact @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws made an excelent work continuing with my original investigation and providing more data and even a NEW fossill!

Regarging just questions, just a few quick answers:

1. How big was it?
Check this image, based in my own calculations.

*This image is copyright of its original author

2. What was on it's menu?
Just like the modern tigers they hunted deer, boar and buffalo, but the specimens were much bigger. Check this fossil of a giant buffalo, also rhinos and hippos and those big Stegodons specimens, together with many other animals, from the Bandung Geological Museum. This place is amazing!!!

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Please check that there skull of the Ngandong tiger is also there! So probably the big femur of 480 mm is also there.

*This image is copyright of its original author

3. Why was it so big?
Again, like modern tigers, this cat was big because the prey was also big. There is a direct correlation between the size of the tiger and the size of its prey.

4. What predators would it have competed with? (No vs debates please)
Dholes, Homotherium and leopard, as far I remember. None of them was as large as the tiger, and at the end, only the tiger and the dhole survived.

5. We're they the biggest pantherine cats yet discovered?
No, they are as big or slightly bigger than the largest cave "lions" Panthera atrox and Panthera spelaea. However until now, I am still inclined that the biggest cat, appart from Smilodon populator, is the cave "lion" Panthera spealea fossilis, by virtue of a huge skull of almoust 490 mm, the biggest ever found.

Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

BTW, I just got some private conversation with @tigerluver today, he got new updated information about the new fossil.

BTW, Ngandong tiger didn't seem to be the only standing giant, the gigantism was likely universal in the Pleistocene tiger world.

That's great! I'll be looking forward to the new information.

The size of the prehistoric lion/tiger was likely symmetric compared to today's.

Back then, even the African lions used to be gargantuan.

Ah yes, I remember reading about that a while back. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(02-27-2019, 07:20 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

That is the only complete skull known for the Ngandong tiger (as far I know, there is other fossil inthe Sangiran museum but is fragmentary), it measured 373 mm in greates length in "true" size but as you can see it is broken at the end. Koenigswald estimated that probably measured some 10 or 20 millimiters more, and using modern Java tigers as a surrogates, I calculate a greatest length of 386 mm "complete".

This is the original picture published by Koenigswald (and furnished by @tigerluver):

*This image is copyright of its original author

Other picture of the skull, this time already in the museum:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The source of that picture:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(03-06-2019, 10:24 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(02-27-2019, 07:20 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Wonder what's the size of that tiger skull in the local museum?

That is the only complete skull known for the Ngandong tiger (as far I know, there is other fossil inthe Sangiran museum but is fragmentary), it measured 373 mm in greates length in "true" size but as you can see it is broken at the end. Koenigswald estimated that probably measured some 10 or 20 millimiters more, and using modern Java tigers as a surrogates, I calculate a greatest length of 386 mm "complete".

This is the original picture published by Koenigswald (and furnished by @tigerluver):

*This image is copyright of its original author

Other picture of the skull, this time already in the museum:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The source of that picture:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The broken mandible simply belonged to a much larger specimen, and the GSL was probably up to 480 mm or more.

Oddly, it was likely a Pleistocene Mainland tiger with some Sunda tiger admixture, and it was only 20,000 years old.

You can see that the ecosystems did recover in few millennium after the Toba eruption, and subsequently a lot of Pleistocene Mainland tigers also migrated to the Sunda Shelf and interbred with the remaining Sunda tigers. Reply

[GuateGojira]

Yes, the mandible is for another and larger specimen. Now the skull in broken at the end of the sagital crest, it should be longer in that area. Interesting as it is, the skull is/was longer than the largest skull of the Amur tiger measured by Mazák, but it was narrower and less massive, suggesting that Island tigers are morphologically lighter than a similar size but more robust morph of the Mainland tigers. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(03-06-2019, 10:45 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Yes, the mandible is for another and larger specimen. Now the skull in broken at the end of the sagital crest, it should be longer in that area. Interesting as it is, the skull is/was longer than the largest skull of the Amur tiger measured by Mazák, but it was narrower and less massive, suggesting that Island tigers are morphologically lighter than a similar size but more robust morph of the Mainland tigers.

Perhaps the Pleistocene Mainland tiger still remained as the largest tiger in the history, also a prime candidate for the largest feline ever existed.

According to tigerluver's study, the closest morphology to the giant mandible was the Indochinese tiger, so it makes sense that Indochinese/South Chinese were all supposed to directly derive from the progenitor strain of the Pleistocene Mainland tiger (AKA Wanhsien tiger). Reply

[smedz]

Honestly I always thought the Javan Tiger was the closest relative of the Ngandong Tiger, but I guess this is an example of expect the unexpected. Anywho, seems that Sundaland was a land full of predators. 

1. Ngandong Tiger 
2. Pachycrocuta brevirostris 
3. Hemimachairodus 
4. Homotherium ultimum (hope I spelled that right) 
5. Leopards 
5. Dholes 
6. Merriam's Dog 
7. Megantereon 

I'm confident these tigers dominated most of these predators, but what about the Pachycrocuta brevirostris ? Did the habitat had an effect on the size of their groups like it does with modern wolves? Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(03-07-2019, 04:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Honestly I always thought the Javan Tiger was the closest relative of the Ngandong Tiger, but I guess this is an example of expect the unexpected. Anywho, seems that Sundaland was a land full of predators. 

1. Ngandong Tiger 
2. Pachycrocuta brevirostris 
3. Hemimachairodus 
4. Homotherium ultimum (hope I spelled that right) 
5. Leopards 
5. Dholes 
6. Merriam's Dog 
7. Megantereon 

I'm confident these tigers dominated most of these predators, but what about the Pachycrocuta brevirostris ? Did the habitat had an effect on the size of their groups like it does with modern wolves?

Not only a close relative, most likely a biological descendant. Reply

[smedz]

(03-07-2019, 06:31 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 04:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Honestly I always thought the Javan Tiger was the closest relative of the Ngandong Tiger, but I guess this is an example of expect the unexpected. Anywho, seems that Sundaland was a land full of predators. 

1. Ngandong Tiger 
2. Pachycrocuta brevirostris 
3. Hemimachairodus 
4. Homotherium ultimum (hope I spelled that right) 
5. Leopards 
5. Dholes 
6. Merriam's Dog 
7. Megantereon 

I'm confident these tigers dominated most of these predators, but what about the Pachycrocuta brevirostris ? Did the habitat had an effect on the size of their groups like it does with modern wolves?

Not only a close relative, most likely a biological descendant.

Now that makes it even sadder those tigers died out due to humans. But at least the Sumatran Tiger is still around, and is likely the closest living biological descendant to the Ngandong Tiger due to being closer to Java. Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

(03-14-2019, 04:07 AM)smedz Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 06:31 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote:

(03-07-2019, 04:28 AM)smedz Wrote: Honestly I always thought the Javan Tiger was the closest relative of the Ngandong Tiger, but I guess this is an example of expect the unexpected. Anywho, seems that Sundaland was a land full of predators. 

1. Ngandong Tiger 
2. Pachycrocuta brevirostris 
3. Hemimachairodus 
4. Homotherium ultimum (hope I spelled that right) 
5. Leopards 
5. Dholes 
6. Merriam's Dog 
7. Megantereon 

I'm confident these tigers dominated most of these predators, but what about the Pachycrocuta brevirostris ? Did the habitat had an effect on the size of their groups like it does with modern wolves?

Not only a close relative, most likely a biological descendant.

Now that makes it even sadder those tigers died out due to humans. But at least the Sumatran Tiger is still around, and is likely the closest living biological descendant to the Ngandong Tiger due to being closer to Java.

The Sumatran tiger descended from the hybrid population between the Wanhsien tiger and Ngandong tiger, so they were also partially a biological descendant. Reply

[smedz]

.

I found this video, may not be directed at the Ngandong Tiger, but obviously it would have been the same way. Reply

[Acinonyx sp.]

Here is an actual 486 kg ngandong tiger specimen


   

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ern_Brazil Reply

[Acinonyx sp.]

This is some information I found on the prey of the ngandong tiger


From this region the tigers again began to spread by migrating along the river following their prey closely - mainly deer and wild boars.
https://prehistoric-fauna.com/Ngandong-tiger

Does anybody have some more info on ngandong tiger predation. Reply

[GuateGojira]

(12-31-2020, 07:24 PM)Acinonyx sp. Wrote: Does anybody have some more info on ngandong tiger predation.

Franz Weidenreich (1951) in his document "Morphology of Solo man", provided this list of animals from the Ngandong time/area:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Some information may need to be uptated, for example Felis palaeojavanica is just a synonimus of Panthera tigris, so take the list just like an overall reference.

The following pictures from the Bandung Geological Museum shows some of those animals.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

This can give you an idea of the fauna of Ngandong in the Pleistocene and which animales were they prey, basically the same prey base as in modern days: deer, pig and cattle. Reply

[GuateGojira]

The large tiger fossils:

As we know, there are very few specimens from tigers in the Ngandong area, actually in the last review there were only 10 specimens, all of them housed in the Bandung Geological Museum (there are other specimens of tigers int he Sangiran Museum but I do not know if they belong to the Ngandong strata). This is the list of the specimens:

*This image is copyright of its original author

All the previous 5 specimens are of the same size as modern tigers, probably females or juveniles, but as the study of this fossils is very poor, there is no form to know this for sure. Now the next 5 specimens are the ones that reached or surpassed the biggest modern tigers (Bengal and Amur) and that compete with the large cave "lions" and Machairodus for the title of the biggest felids.

I decided to make the following comparative image because I still see several missinformation about these fossils, some believe that they are of the same animal, others that they are incomplete or broken, so there are weird conclutions in the web. I read that one guy belived that the femur belonged to a long legged tiger with regular sized skull (sic!). This person probably was thinking in a lynx, not in a tiger, which morphology is so well known that we know that tigers have shorter legs in comparison with they size.

Now, this is the comparative image with the fossils of the 5 large specimens and they measurements. I restored the mandible and the skull (shows in other color to avoid confusion) so we can see them in what could be they true size. I did not included weights, that will be for another image, but I can say that while the specimens of the skull and smaller humerus probably weighed between 230 - 270 kg, the biggest humerus, mandble and femur surpassed the 300 kg and reached about 370 kg. So, check them:

*This image is copyright of its original author

You can save it for your own reference, all bones are to scale.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Greetings to all! Reply

[GrizzlyClaws]

Maybe the largest specimen for the Ngandong tiger got a 18 inches skull, and 19 inches for the giant Bornean tiger.

Maybe the Ngandong tiger got proportionally smaller skull compared to the giant Bornean tiger, but it cannot have a skull size of a modern tiger. Reply