Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[GuateGojira]

(09-22-2020, 04:13 AM)Yusuf Wrote: Simply Peter agreed with me and you can look yourself.

Is this true @peter. Did you actually speak with this guy, had a conversation and at the end you agreed with him?


I ask you because I don't remember that you ever said what @Yusuf is saying here. Reply

[peter]

(09-22-2020, 10:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 04:13 AM)Yusuf Wrote: Simply Peter agreed with me and you can look yourself.

Is this true @peter. Did you actually speak with this guy, had a conversation and at the end you agreed with him?


I ask you because I don't remember that you ever said what @Yusuf is saying here.

I was out for some days, Guate. When I returned, I saw the remnants of the air raid. I wonder who approved of his membership and why he was allowed to unload his train when it should have been clear his intention, apart from dumping garbage, was to start a versus debate.  

It didn't take me long to conclude Yusuf was out for your tables. It was also clear he had decided to use me to reach his goal. My guess was you would respond before I would be able to delete all his posts and do the permanent ban and so it was.  

Your response is directed at the crap he posted. If his posts are deleted, your response will have to go as well. Let us know what you want. 

As to your question. Yusuf is a member of the lion brigade at Tapatalk. He recently also joined Carnivora to do battle. Not long after he had fired his first shots, he stumbled upon the Hobatere lions table I posted here some time ago. At it looked good, he decided to use it. Without the liner notes and my name, of course. As it had the intended effect, he read a bit more. Everything I had written supporting his case without too much twists and turns was incorporated and used. With my name, as that often met with approval. The cocktail of info then was finished with a nice dressing and a personal note and served. 

At to the most probably cause of the problems. Some time ago, PC joined the lion tiger battle at Carnivora. It wasn't appreciated. My guess was the favour would be returned sooner or later. I was right. I'll ask him to do a few decisions. Reply

[Rishi]

(09-21-2020, 10:47 PM)Yusuf Wrote: You won't believe anything on lions but everything on tigers. On Carnivora.net we can saw how biased you are.

@Yusuf is on permanent blacklist for turning it into VS debate, making personal attack, derailing thread with offtopic discussion & claiming baseless statements as facts... Keep those discussions restricted in the fightclub forums.

Whole posts will be deleted if some of the content violates Wildfact policy.

@Pckts please don't respond to flamebait with more fuel. Reply

[Shadow]

(09-22-2020, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-21-2020, 10:47 PM)Yusuf Wrote: You won't believe anything on lions but everything on tigers. On Carnivora.net we can saw how biased you are.

@Yusuf is on permanent blacklist for turning it into VS debate, making personal attack, derailing thread with offtopic discussion & claiming baseless statements as facts... Keep those discussions restricted in the fightclub forums.

Whole posts will be deleted if some of the content violates Wildfact policy.

@Pckts please don't respond to flamebait with more fuel.

Agreed, I had decided to wait later today before doing drastic moves, but this discussion wasn´t going to any good direction and no good new information.

I also checked a bit of that case of lions to Rwanda, because that leaflet "Lions and predators statistics" was obviously self-made. It was just made to look like some professional or journalist would have done it.

Anyway what comes to those weights, source can be Facebook site of African Parks.

There is this text:

"Five lionesses from &Beyond Phinda Private Game Reserve, two male lions from Tembe Elephant Park, both in KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa this morning began their journey to their new home in Akagera National Park, Rwanda. The lions were darted, tranquilised and collared by teams of vets, reserve managers and wildlife specialists with experience in translocation and relocations. They were placed in specially designed relocation containers and then loaded by crane on to a truck that will take them on their seven hour journey to Johannesburg where they will be carefully off loaded and reloaded (around midnight) on to a charter flight to Kigali, the capital of Rwanda. From Kigali they will be transported by road to Akagera National Park where they are expected to arrive tomorrow (Tuesday) morning.

The five “beauties” from Phinda include one 10 year old female and four lionesses between two and a half and four years old. They each weigh between 180 and 190 kg. The two male lions from Tembe are three and a half and four and half years old. They each weigh around 250 kg. They are known to have sirred at least 12 cubs and to have an affinity for their female counterparts so we hope they will continue their wily ways in Akagera with the “beauties” from Phinda."

Published 19th June 2015.

In that self made leaflet it was said, that two lions were "both weighing 550 pounds". All other places mentioning weights says "around 550 lbs". Not giving exact weights.

That project was a big one and with a lot of publicity. It´s probable, that lions were weighed, because they had to be sedated and examined and most probably more than once. But what were the weights really is another question. I couldn´t find any source giving exact weights really. It´s easy to round up figures in articles, it has been seen in many occasions. Otherwise there is a lot of information concerning this project, if someone is interested, it might be possible to get weights from some veterinarians involved, who knows. 

But I´ve seen bears to "shrink" over 400 kg and many tigers and lions 30-50 kg, when comparing newspaper articles and what some zoo/experts then tells, when asked, so at this point these weights can be said to be possible, but not something what could be used as reliable, imo. Not even close to that good information. Reply

[Pckts]

My 2 cents

I dont think he deserves to be immediately blacklisted, if no warning is issued then maybe that should be the first course. 
I dont find him particularly disrespectful and while he posts a lot of the same fan made bs as other Lion fanatics, its not like those points can't be discussed and easily disproven.
In time he'll learn to be a better poster from it but if no oppurtunity is given then that will never happen.
Lastly is that we have cat comparison thread already, we have a lion v tiger interaction thread, etc. What he was posting is in the same vein as those threads, I think you should make it clearer what you guys will and wont allow. Reply

[Shadow]

(09-22-2020, 03:11 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-21-2020, 10:47 PM)Yusuf Wrote: You won't believe anything on lions but everything on tigers. On Carnivora.net we can saw how biased you are.

@Yusuf is on permanent blacklist for turning it into VS debate, making personal attack, derailing thread with offtopic discussion & claiming baseless statements as facts... Keep those discussions restricted in the fightclub forums.

Whole posts will be deleted if some of the content violates Wildfact policy.

@Pckts please don't respond to flamebait with more fuel.

Agreed, I had decided to wait later today before doing drastic moves, but this discussion wasn´t going to any good direction and no good new information.

I also checked a bit of that case of lions to Rwanda, because that leaflet "Lions and predators statistics" was obviously self-made. It was just made to look like some professional or journalist would have done it.

Anyway what comes to those weights, source can be Facebook site of African Parks.

There is this text:

"Five lionesses from &Beyond Phinda Private Game Reserve, two male lions from Tembe Elephant Park, both in KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa this morning began their journey to their new home in Akagera National Park, Rwanda. The lions were darted, tranquilised and collared by teams of vets, reserve managers and wildlife specialists with experience in translocation and relocations. They were placed in specially designed relocation containers and then loaded by crane on to a truck that will take them on their seven hour journey to Johannesburg where they will be carefully off loaded and reloaded (around midnight) on to a charter flight to Kigali, the capital of Rwanda. From Kigali they will be transported by road to Akagera National Park where they are expected to arrive tomorrow (Tuesday) morning.

The five “beauties” from Phinda include one 10 year old female and four lionesses between two and a half and four years old. They each weigh between 180 and 190 kg. The two male lions from Tembe are three and a half and four and half years old. They each weigh around 250 kg. They are known to have sirred at least 12 cubs and to have an affinity for their female counterparts so we hope they will continue their wily ways in Akagera with the “beauties” from Phinda."

Published 19th June 2015.

In that self made leaflet it was said, that two lions were "both weighing 550 pounds". All other places mentioning weights says "around 550 lbs". Not giving exact weights.

That project was a big one and with a lot of publicity. It´s probable, that lions were weighed, because they had to be sedated and examined and most probably more than once. But what were the weights really is another question. I couldn´t find any source giving exact weights really. It´s easy to round up figures in articles, it has been seen in many occasions. Otherwise there is a lot of information concerning this project, if someone is interested, it might be possible to get weights from some veterinarians involved, who knows. 

But I´ve seen bears to "shrink" over 400 kg and many tigers and lions 30-50 kg, when comparing newspaper articles and what some zoo/experts then tells, when asked, so at this point these weights can be said to be possible, but not something what could be used as reliable, imo. Not even close to that good information.

Actually those weights could be from airport and with containers, weighed before going in the airplane. If thinking, that containers 40-50 kg heavy, those lions weights would look suddenly quite average. While a 180 kg lioness can be possible in exceptional case, how likely it would be to have 5 that heavy lionesses at same place same time, looking just average and one very young looking to be clearly smaller (there is a documentary made of this operation and a lot of footage showing lions.

Then we would be talking a about 200-210 kg males and 130-140 kg lionesses. Or maybe 190 kg males and 120-130 kg lionesses. This is all guessing, but I think, that this kind of figures are way closer the truth if real weights can be found out one day. But having two exceptionally big male lions and five really exceptionally big lionesses at same place... what are the odds, everyone can think themselves. Reply

[Rishi]

(09-22-2020, 04:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: My 2 cents

I dont think he deserves to be immediately blacklisted, if no warning is issued then maybe that should be the first course. 
I dont find him particularly disrespectful and while he posts a lot of the same fan made bs as other Lion fanatics, its not like those points can't be discussed and easily disproven.
In time he'll learn to be a better poster from it but if no oppurtunity is given then that will never happen.
Lastly is that we have cat comparison thread already, we have a lion v tiger interaction thread, etc. What he was posting is in the same vein as those threads, I think you should make it clearer what you guys will and wont allow.

Definitely not off to a good start. Almost derailed the thread. If someone is sharing on unreliable information, their posts are monitored.

Rest depends on the nature his future posting. Reply

[Shadow]

@Yusuf  We have some discussion with moderators. It´s not about it, that lions couldn´t be discussed, it´s about it, that how. We have here people, who like a lot about tigers and people who like a lot about lions, jaguars, wolves, bears, leopards etc. Some are more active than others, some just read postings.

Moderators do their best to be as "peacekeepers" and of course also trying to look after it, that not total rubbish posted. Especially on purpose. You have been walking on a thin line here. Looks like that misquoting @peter and also some attitude problems with @Pckts and @GuateGojira . I don´t know and frankly saying I don´t care what has happened in other forums. If you want to post and discuss here, then I recommend that you keep calm and also try to understand what others say, don´t immediately think, that biased against you or lions. 

Lion threads of Wildfact are nowadays even more popular than tiger threads when looking at numbers of visitors. Both, tigers and lions are respected here as well as other animals, even though time to time there are debates.

We have to have some discussion between moderators. My advice now is, if you want to be here. Focus more to provide good information and valid sources, don´t focus too much to "win" something. When posting good information, people who are interested do read it. If there is criticism, don´t take it personally, you can explain better if your case is strong.

But for instance those lions relocated to Rwanda, I hope that you understand why people, including me, have a good reason to believe, that those weights aren´t actual weights of those lions. I would make same comments if someone would write, that 5 tigresses 180-190 kg and two male tigers 250 kg would have been relocated, those weights are that big. Maybe in limits of possible in some way, but same time practically impossible, when talking about wild big cats. I mean that many exceptional individuals same time same place.

I´ve said this in many occasions, but usually when something looks too good to be true, it isn´t. Reply

[Yusuf]

(09-22-2020, 08:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: @Yusuf  We have some discussion with moderators. It´s not about it, that lions couldn´t be discussed, it´s about it, that how. We have here people, who like a lot about tigers and people who like a lot about lions, jaguars, wolves, bears, leopards etc. Some are more active than others, some just read postings.

Moderators do their best to be as "peacekeepers" and of course also trying to look after it, that not total rubbish posted. Especially on purpose. You have been walking on a thin line here. Looks like that misquoting @peter and also some attitude problems with @Pckts and @GuateGojira . I don´t know and frankly saying I don´t care what has happened in other forums. If you want to post and discuss here, then I recommend that you keep calm and also try to understand what others say, don´t immediately think, that biased against you or lions. 

Lion threads of Wildfact are nowadays even more popular than tiger threads when looking at numbers of visitors. Both, tigers and lions are respected here as well as other animals, even though time to time there are debates.

We have to have some discussion between moderators. My advice now is, if you want to be here. Focus more to provide good information and valid sources, don´t focus too much to "win" something. When posting good information, people who are interested do read it. If there is criticism, don´t take it personally, you can explain better if your case is strong.

But for instance those lions relocated to Rwanda, I hope that you understand why people, including me, have a good reason to believe, that those weights aren´t actual weights of those lions. I would make same comments if someone would write, that 5 tigresses 180-190 kg and two male tigers 250 kg would have been relocated, those weights are that big. Maybe in limits of possible in some way, but same time practically impossible, when talking about wild big cats. I mean that many exceptional individuals same time same place.

I´ve said this in many occasions, but usually when something looks too good to be true, it isn´t.

 You are right but the source seems to be ok in my opinion. With picture they showed the lion.

But you are right. But do not forget if a lion pride is very successful all lions in the pride seem to be very heavy. 

Maybe I can get more informations. Best regards. Reply

[Shadow]

(09-22-2020, 08:51 PM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 08:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: @Yusuf  We have some discussion with moderators. It´s not about it, that lions couldn´t be discussed, it´s about it, that how. We have here people, who like a lot about tigers and people who like a lot about lions, jaguars, wolves, bears, leopards etc. Some are more active than others, some just read postings.

Moderators do their best to be as "peacekeepers" and of course also trying to look after it, that not total rubbish posted. Especially on purpose. You have been walking on a thin line here. Looks like that misquoting @peter and also some attitude problems with @Pckts and @GuateGojira . I don´t know and frankly saying I don´t care what has happened in other forums. If you want to post and discuss here, then I recommend that you keep calm and also try to understand what others say, don´t immediately think, that biased against you or lions. 

Lion threads of Wildfact are nowadays even more popular than tiger threads when looking at numbers of visitors. Both, tigers and lions are respected here as well as other animals, even though time to time there are debates.

We have to have some discussion between moderators. My advice now is, if you want to be here. Focus more to provide good information and valid sources, don´t focus too much to "win" something. When posting good information, people who are interested do read it. If there is criticism, don´t take it personally, you can explain better if your case is strong.

But for instance those lions relocated to Rwanda, I hope that you understand why people, including me, have a good reason to believe, that those weights aren´t actual weights of those lions. I would make same comments if someone would write, that 5 tigresses 180-190 kg and two male tigers 250 kg would have been relocated, those weights are that big. Maybe in limits of possible in some way, but same time practically impossible, when talking about wild big cats. I mean that many exceptional individuals same time same place.

I´ve said this in many occasions, but usually when something looks too good to be true, it isn´t.

 You are right but the source seems to be ok in my opinion. With picture they showed the lion.

But you are right. But do not forget if a lion pride is very successful all lions in the pride seem to be very heavy. 

Maybe I can get more informations. Best regards.

Yes healthy sisters could be close in weight. Still 180-190 kg is extreme weight for lioness and that should ring alarm bells always even if talking about one lioness. Then again those lions weren´t from same pride. They were gathered from different prides, this document tells, that two lionesses were sisters, another pair were mother and daughter and fifth not related in any way to others. You can see from page 182 forward: https://portals.iucn.org/library/sites/l...006-En.pdf

This is then again NatGeo documentary from this relocation. Somewhat dramatic narration, but lions can be seen clearly and not looking to be especially big or small.

These lions are just one example, but I wanted to make this case clear. And this project was interesting one, maybe some people find that documentary interesting, most definitely worth to watch for people who like lions and interested about conservation projects. Reply

[Pckts]

(09-22-2020, 08:51 PM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-22-2020, 08:07 PM)Shadow Wrote: @Yusuf  We have some discussion with moderators. It´s not about it, that lions couldn´t be discussed, it´s about it, that how. We have here people, who like a lot about tigers and people who like a lot about lions, jaguars, wolves, bears, leopards etc. Some are more active than others, some just read postings.

Moderators do their best to be as "peacekeepers" and of course also trying to look after it, that not total rubbish posted. Especially on purpose. You have been walking on a thin line here. Looks like that misquoting @peter and also some attitude problems with @Pckts and @GuateGojira . I don´t know and frankly saying I don´t care what has happened in other forums. If you want to post and discuss here, then I recommend that you keep calm and also try to understand what others say, don´t immediately think, that biased against you or lions. 

Lion threads of Wildfact are nowadays even more popular than tiger threads when looking at numbers of visitors. Both, tigers and lions are respected here as well as other animals, even though time to time there are debates.

We have to have some discussion between moderators. My advice now is, if you want to be here. Focus more to provide good information and valid sources, don´t focus too much to "win" something. When posting good information, people who are interested do read it. If there is criticism, don´t take it personally, you can explain better if your case is strong.

But for instance those lions relocated to Rwanda, I hope that you understand why people, including me, have a good reason to believe, that those weights aren´t actual weights of those lions. I would make same comments if someone would write, that 5 tigresses 180-190 kg and two male tigers 250 kg would have been relocated, those weights are that big. Maybe in limits of possible in some way, but same time practically impossible, when talking about wild big cats. I mean that many exceptional individuals same time same place.

I´ve said this in many occasions, but usually when something looks too good to be true, it isn´t.

 You are right but the source seems to be ok in my opinion. With picture they showed the lion.

But you are right. But do not forget if a lion pride is very successful all lions in the pride seem to be very heavy. 

Maybe I can get more informations. Best regards.

I already posted the link but here it is again


https://dailyprogress.com/lion-populatio...1655c.html

The Only animal captured were the females during this article, the males had been captured earlier and were father's to 12+ cubs, obviously not 3-4 year old sub adults.
The weights are estimated as the author's statement says "around 250kg" with no reference to actual weights nor who provided it. It's just a standard wiki weight provided for Lions or Tigers that's used for these types of articles. Reply

[Yusuf]

(09-25-2020, 11:56 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 08:02 AM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 07:07 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-24-2020, 08:13 PM)Yusuf Wrote: Personally i dont agree that a adult male tiger has a minimum weight of 200 kg...
...According to Mazák, the average weight of Indian male tigers should fluctuate around 190 kg. (The most reliable max weights are a 258 kg male bengal tiger reported by mazak)
Mazák, 1983 (S. 178 ff.)


Best Regards.

Oh no, he means the weight range that atleast 70% of healthy adults fall within, that's how they're doing it now... the acreage itself is a range. Any 180kg or 280kg individuals are not in that.
WII data samples not only collectively outnumber all the others combined, but are also evenly spread over all India. Jhala's words carry more weight than anybody else's from 50 years ago.

Nonetheless, I think you should go through the old posts on this thread. Get a look at the specimens around with their weights.

Personally i used Mazak to prove that experts cant know the real weight of a male tiger. He described the male sibirian tiger as 230 kg on average whcih sint correct. There are even 120 kg lions described as healthy and adult. Anyways the datas on tigers are not really good. We have more datas for the tiger than for the lion but they arent really good. With good i mean datas with big sample size. 100% Conclusive datas for tigers are in my opinions Brander, Behar and maybe Hewett and that was it. Other datas are only reports and datas with small sampe sizes.

Best regards

And @GuateGojira im still waiting for a answer via privat message. I dont want to debate or something. I only corrected your method to get the average for lions and tigers that was it.

@Yusuf I think, that you shouldn´t use the word "correct" when you just disagree, but can´t prove your point in convincing way. 

Guate has clear tables and explanations which sources have been used and how so, that all readers can see it and check things if they want. 

I don´t think, that at this point guate has any need to prove something, when you haven´t been able to explain what would be really wrong in his charts.

So the they didn't weighed the lions... but he estimated 120-150 kg.
   

Best regards Reply

[Shadow]

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 11:56 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 08:02 AM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 07:07 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-24-2020, 08:13 PM)Yusuf Wrote: Personally i dont agree that a adult male tiger has a minimum weight of 200 kg...
...According to Mazák, the average weight of Indian male tigers should fluctuate around 190 kg. (The most reliable max weights are a 258 kg male bengal tiger reported by mazak)
Mazák, 1983 (S. 178 ff.)


Best Regards.

Oh no, he means the weight range that atleast 70% of healthy adults fall within, that's how they're doing it now... the acreage itself is a range. Any 180kg or 280kg individuals are not in that.
WII data samples not only collectively outnumber all the others combined, but are also evenly spread over all India. Jhala's words carry more weight than anybody else's from 50 years ago.

Nonetheless, I think you should go through the old posts on this thread. Get a look at the specimens around with their weights.

Personally i used Mazak to prove that experts cant know the real weight of a male tiger. He described the male sibirian tiger as 230 kg on average whcih sint correct. There are even 120 kg lions described as healthy and adult. Anyways the datas on tigers are not really good. We have more datas for the tiger than for the lion but they arent really good. With good i mean datas with big sample size. 100% Conclusive datas for tigers are in my opinions Brander, Behar and maybe Hewett and that was it. Other datas are only reports and datas with small sampe sizes.

Best regards

And @GuateGojira im still waiting for a answer via privat message. I dont want to debate or something. I only corrected your method to get the average for lions and tigers that was it.

@Yusuf I think, that you shouldn´t use the word "correct" when you just disagree, but can´t prove your point in convincing way. 

Guate has clear tables and explanations which sources have been used and how so, that all readers can see it and check things if they want. 

I don´t think, that at this point guate has any need to prove something, when you haven´t been able to explain what would be really wrong in his charts.

So the they didn't weighed the lions... but he estimated 120-150 kg.


Best regards

So in normal weight range. Well, now I can say, that I said so, because I said that it was 100% clear, that false weights in newspapers.

To say this frankly, it´s no secret, that you favor lions. No problem, many favor tigers. But I hope, that you can tune down a bit certain kind of attitude/passion or whatever expression you want to use. It´s way nicer to discuss or debate if you can do it. You made now quite big misjudgement for a person, who should know something about lions. I know, that I now press a bit salt to wounds, but we all make mistakes sometimes so it´s nothing so dangerous. Reply

[Yusuf]

(09-25-2020, 10:40 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 09:25 PM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 11:56 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 08:02 AM)Yusuf Wrote:

(09-25-2020, 07:07 AM)Rishi Wrote:

(09-24-2020, 08:13 PM)Yusuf Wrote: Personally i dont agree that a adult male tiger has a minimum weight of 200 kg...
...According to Mazák, the average weight of Indian male tigers should fluctuate around 190 kg. (The most reliable max weights are a 258 kg male bengal tiger reported by mazak)
Mazák, 1983 (S. 178 ff.)


Best Regards.

Oh no, he means the weight range that atleast 70% of healthy adults fall within, that's how they're doing it now... the acreage itself is a range. Any 180kg or 280kg individuals are not in that.
WII data samples not only collectively outnumber all the others combined, but are also evenly spread over all India. Jhala's words carry more weight than anybody else's from 50 years ago.

Nonetheless, I think you should go through the old posts on this thread. Get a look at the specimens around with their weights.

Personally i used Mazak to prove that experts cant know the real weight of a male tiger. He described the male sibirian tiger as 230 kg on average whcih sint correct. There are even 120 kg lions described as healthy and adult. Anyways the datas on tigers are not really good. We have more datas for the tiger than for the lion but they arent really good. With good i mean datas with big sample size. 100% Conclusive datas for tigers are in my opinions Brander, Behar and maybe Hewett and that was it. Other datas are only reports and datas with small sampe sizes.

Best regards

And @GuateGojira im still waiting for a answer via privat message. I dont want to debate or something. I only corrected your method to get the average for lions and tigers that was it.

@Yusuf I think, that you shouldn´t use the word "correct" when you just disagree, but can´t prove your point in convincing way. 

Guate has clear tables and explanations which sources have been used and how so, that all readers can see it and check things if they want. 

I don´t think, that at this point guate has any need to prove something, when you haven´t been able to explain what would be really wrong in his charts.

So the they didn't weighed the lions... but he estimated 120-150 kg.


Best regards

So in normal weight range. Well, now I can say, that I said so, because I said that it was 100% clear, that false weights in newspapers.

To say this frankly, it´s no secret, that you favor lions. No problem, many favor tigers. But I hope, that you can tune down a bit certain kind of attitude/passion or whatever expression you want to use. It´s way nicer to discuss or debate if you can do it. You made now quite big misjudgement for a person, who should know something about lions. I know, that I now press a bit salt to wounds, but we all make mistakes sometimes so it´s nothing so dangerous.

Yeah I like lions but I would not consider myself as a fanatic. Reply

[Pckts]

I joined SCI and now have access to their Record Books.

I'll post records of each Big Cats species I can find.

*Date Taken, Location, With which Hunting Program, gun used, Skull Score*


African Lion Top 20

1. 10/2017 Zambia, Luangwa Valley Stone Hunting Safaris / Jason Stone R 29 1/16"
2. 06/2011 Zambia, Luangwa Valley Stone Hunting Safaris / Jason Stone R 28 6/16" 
3. 06/1999 Zimbabwe, Zambezi Valley Rusty Labuschagne / Safari Trackers R 28 1/16" 
4. 06/1999 Mozambique, Gaza Sandy McDonald / McDonald Pro Hunting R 27 11/16" 
5. 11/2014 Zimbabwe, Gwaai Zim Africa / Heath Jardine R 27 10/16"
6. 06/2019 Zambia, Luangwa Valley Stone Hunting Safaris / Jason Stone B 27 7/16"
7. 04/1995 Botswana, Chobe Rann Safaris "Africa" R 27 6/16"
8. 07/2019 Zambia, Upper Lupande Stone Hunting Safaris / Jason Stone C 27 4/16" 
9. 11/2008 Tanzania, Masailand Stone Hunting Safaris R 27 3/16" 
10. 09/2003 Tanzania, Ruhudji Harpreet S. Brar / Rungwa Game Safaris R 27 2/16"
11. 06/2007 Botswana, Bottlepan Bottlepan Safaris / Mike Murray R 27 2/16"
12. 09/2005 Botswana, Maun Bird Safaris / Luke Blackbeard R 27 1/16"
13. 07/2007 Tanzania, Burungi Stone Hunting Safaris R 27 1/16"
14. 07/2015 Zimbabwe, Bubye Valley Conservancy John Sharp R 27 1/16"
15. 09/1994 Tanzania, Mbono Alberto Feu Hereu / T.G.T.S. R 27" 
16. 04/1997 Botswana, Chobe Rann Safaris "Africa" R 27"
17. 10/2002 Tanzania, Kilombero Paul Jelonek / Bundu Safaris R 27" 
18. 05/2005 Botswana, Ngamiland Kgori Safaris R 27" 
19. 10/1991 Tanzania, Loliondo South Cotton Gordon Safaris R 26 14/16"
20. 07/1994 Zimbabwe, Zambezi Valley Rod Ferreira / Track-A-Hunt Safaris R 26 14/16" 


African Lion (South Africa and Namibia)
Top 20

1. 09/2015 R.S.A., Bray Madubula Safaris / John Abraham R 28 15/16" 
2. 10/2014 R.S.A., Cradock Madubula Safaris / Rudo Myburg R 28 12/16" 
3. 02/2004 R.S.A., Timbavati John Abraham / Madubula Safaris R 28 6/16" 
4. 11/2012 R.S.A., Tosca Somerby Safaris / Andre Nel R 28 6/16"
5. 07/2013 R.S.A. Watts Trophy Safaris / Gidion Watts B 28 6/16" 
6. 09/2013 R.S.A., Tosca Madubula Safaris / Tony English R 28 6/16"
7. 08/2016 R.S.A., Kalahari TB Hounds Tinashe / T. Botha R 28 6/16" 
8. 12/2011 R.S.A., Ingogo Ingogo Safaris / Walter Slippers C 28 4/16" 
9. 05/2014 R.S.A., Northwest Province Ditholo Safaris / J.L. Giriesel R 28 4/16" 
10. 11/2009 R.S.A., Kalahari Mabula Pro Safaris / Christo Gomez R 28 3/16" 
11. 01/2010 R.S.A., Kuruman Stone Hunting Safaris / Jason Stone R 28 3/16" 
12. 08/2010 R.S.A., Vryburg De Klerk Safaris / Christo V Deventer R 28 2/16" 
13. 03/2013 R.S.A., Cradock Tam Safaris / Stepen Tam R 28 2/16" 
14. 04/2013 R.S.A., Northwest Province Quagga Safaris / Eric Vissar R 28 2/16" 
15. 12/2007 R.S.A., Northern Province Unico Hunting Safari / Attie van Niekerk R 28 1/16" 
16. 08/2010 R.S.A., Kalahari Somerby Safaris / Helgard "Drom" Beukes R 28" 8 8
17. 08/2012 R.S.A., Kalahari Somerby Safaris R 28" 8 8
18. 10/2014 R.S.A., Cradock Madubula Safaris / Rudo Myburg R 28" 
19. 06/2006 R.S.A., Ingogo Ingogo Safaris R 27 15/16" 
20. 03/2004 R.S.A., Klaserie Graham Sales / Madubula Safaris R 27 14/16"


DESCRIPTION (male) Length, including tail, 8-1/2 to 10 feet (260-305 cm), occasionally more. Shoulder height 40-48 inches (100-120 cm). Weight 350-500 pounds (160-225 kg), sometimes more. (female) Head and body length, including tail, 7-9 feet (215-275 cm). Shoulder height 38-42 inches (97-107 cm). Weight 265-375 pounds (120-170 kg). The female normally has two pairs of teats, but some individuals have been recorded with three pairs.

The lion is the largest cat in Africa and, among the world's cats, is second in size only to the tiger. The smooth short coat is usually tawny beige in color, but can vary from light gray to dark reddish brown. The end of the tail has a black tuft, and there are black markings on the backs of the ears. There are five toes (including dewclaws) on the front feet, four on the hind feet, all with sharp, curved, retractile claws. The male usually has a mane of long hairs on its head, shoulders and chest, but there is much variation, with some individuals having magnificent manes and others being nearly bald, and the color varying from blond to black. Besides being considerably smaller than males, females are more lightly built and lack a mane.

BEHAVIOR Lions are the most social of all cats and usually are found in family groups, or prides, consisting of related females and their young plus one or more adult males. Adult males often form small bachelor groups. Seldom solitary. Each group has a large home range. Not territorial. Breeding takes place throughout the year, although in any one pride the females tend to deliver offspring at about the same time. A female normally gives birth every 18-26 months, with 3-4 cubs the usual number (the range is 1-6). Cubs are sexually mature at 3-4 years, but continue to grow until about age six. Longevity in the wild: males about 12 years, but up to 16 years, females 15-16 years, but up to 18 years; in captivity average 13 years, but as much as 25-30 years.

Lions spend most of the time resting and sleeping, averaging 20 or more hours of inactivity a day. Activity may occur at any hour, but their hunts take place mainly at twilight and night. Lions are entirely carnivorous, their usual prey consisting of warthogs, antelopes and zebras in the 100-650-pound range (45-300 kg), though larger species such as buffalo and giraffe are also taken. Will eat carrion. An individual lion can eat as much as 80-90 pounds (36-41 kg) of meat at one meal, and is estimated to require 10-20 large prey animals per year. May prey on cattle and other livestock, and some lions become man-eaters, creating havoc when they do. Drinks daily when water is available, but can subsist without water for long periods by obtaining moisture from its prey.

Sense of smell is good, hearing and eyesight are excellent. Its voice is the well-known roar, which is heard mainly at night and is audible for miles. Able to run 40 mph (65 km/h) for a short distance. A poor tree-climber.

HABITAT Grassland, bush and savanna woodland. Rarely in dense forest. Never in rain forest.

DISTRIBUTION Widespread throughout Africa from south of the Sahara to northern Namibia, Botswana and parts of South Africa.

REMARKS A lion is a highly esteemed hunting trophy and taking a good one is a major event for both client and safari staff. The usual hunting methods are by baiting or tracking; however, many lions are taken by chance encounter. Lions can be extremely dangerous when wounded or provoked, especially if other members of the pride become involved.

Trophy quality is determined largely by the mane, although size of body and skull are also important. Because a lion's Record Book score is the sum of its skull measurements, skull size is of primary importance to anyone seeking a high ranking. Unfortunately, a large-bodied, large-skulled lion can have a poor mane, and vice versa. The ideal combination of a full mane of whatever color the hunter prefers, a large body and a large skull is difficult to find and often necessitates a number of safaris.

An unfortunate consequence is the setup or "canned" lion hunt, in which a captive lion is presented to an unsuspecting client. Such a "hunt" can be impossible for the client to detect if well-orchestrated. Since the beginning, SCI has had a policy against accepting setup lions for the Record Book, and has never knowingly done so. Reply