There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
02-05-2022, 08:51 PM( This post was last modified: 02-05-2022, 09:19 PM by Hello )
Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some fenced private reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their fully wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Inverdoorn Private Game Reserve is a family-run reserve found in the heart of a typically open Karoo landscape in South Africa. The reserve is home to a captive cheetah breeding program and guests, from the top of a viewing platform, can view these cats in full sprint as they pursue a lure on a pulley. The lions are kept in a separate fenced off portion of the reserve, one of which is a male Cape Barbary Lion which has a magnificent mane and is slightly larger than the average male lion. Typical game species such as giraffe, springbok (including the black morph of this species) and gemsbok (oryx) are common. With a little luck guests can also view small populations of white rhino and buffalo. In addition, exotic species such as red lechwe and European fallow deer have been introduced to the reserve.
02-05-2022, 08:57 PM( This post was last modified: 02-05-2022, 08:58 PM by SpinoRex )
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
(02-05-2022, 04:41 PM)SpinoRex Wrote: UPTADE (New lion weights)
The ecologist of Madikwe said to me:
Quote:The Homob male in Pilannesberg for example weighed 237kgs (pers coms Gus Van
Dyk) but he had just eaten- so arguably you can take of at least 20-30kg
Gus Van?
Did you ask how who/how he obtained the weight from?
No he just said it to me. But Gus Van Dyk is a field biologist and responsible for Wildlife Conservation at Tswali Kalahari now.
I will ask him personally as well
That would definitely be who you want to speak with. Hopefully he can give you some weights and measurements.
Although rob already gave me the info but maybe he has more infos on weighed lions. I will ask now many reserves and nationalparks about their lions.
The batia male 2004 (Rob send me a special picture), Here he isnt so "fat" as before(2001) but really compact. T
*This image is copyright of its original author
Information about the batia males from Rob
Quote:FYI – The Bartia brothers were introduced into Madikwe from Etosha in 1995
as 3yr olds.
In 2008 at around 16yrs - the one was killed by a buffalo and the other by other territorial male lions.
Also i am now in contact with Yamaguchi and shared him the datas about lion and tigers especially about those from Timbavati, The tiger from Jhala and so on. I gave him the contact details of those who weighed them and he was really interested. These individuals may get their place in scientific literature
If Rob is the field biologist, that’s who’s word you should take. Him mentioning that the largest Lion weighed in Kruger was 225kg is probably in regards to Smutts.
I’d ask him more about weights he’s specifically obtained if you can.
Yamaguchi has no real experience with live cats to my knowledge, just skeletal measurements only. Jhala is already highly regarded in the scientific community, his cats have their place. If he chooses to make their weights public is up to him.
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
Yes, indeed reserves have wild and captive ones, but they are also fed sometimes (some private reserves, not all) which makes them semi-wild.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Yes, you're right, the Second one looks ok.
The following 1 user Likes Hello's post:1 user Likes Hello's post • Spalea
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
Private hunting reserves really shouldn’t be considered truly wild. They are more of a hybrid between captive and wild.
No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
02-05-2022, 09:53 PM( This post was last modified: 02-05-2022, 09:54 PM by SpinoRex )
(02-05-2022, 09:24 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 08:57 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
Private hunting reserves really shouldn’t be considered truly wild. They are more of a hybrid between captive and wild.
No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
It depends on what reservations we're talking about. The game reserves we know and the ones that are famous have mainly wild animals. Reserves offer canned hunting, where the lions live in large areas but still in captivity (i.e. Rhino NP). But I have heard that Timbavati is supposedly classified as semi-wild, which could not make less sense when talking about Ximpoko and Mabande. Ximpoko was often in Kruger and Mabande does not live in Timbavati anymore.
Quote:No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
The info is relatively far-fetched. Smuts had weighed a total of 344 lions (158 males & 186 females) of all ages. In fact he just weighed 41 adult males in Kruger National park and the heaviest was 225 kg but had no stomach content. His sample generally lacked those big ones compared to the data provided by Roberts 1951 (132-251 kg, all ages n=17), MacFarlane and HuBerry
Quote:Measurements were recorded for 344 lions (Panthera leo) (158 males and 186 females), from Kruger National Park, South Africa. Growth in mass for males and females was linear up to about 36 months of age 0 = 0–98 and 0–99 respectively). The other age-specific measurements were clearly curvilinear. Mean weights for adult lions (excluding stomach contents) were 187.5 kg (males) and 124.2 kg (females) respectively.
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
Private hunting reserves really shouldn’t be considered truly wild. They are more of a hybrid between captive and wild.
No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
It depends on what reservations we're talking about. The game reserves we know and the ones that are famous have mainly wild animals. Reserves offer canned hunting, where the lions live in large areas but still in captivity (i.e. Rhino NP). But I have heard that Timbavati is supposedly classified as semi-wild, which could not make less sense when talking about Ximpoko and Mabande. Ximpoko was often in Kruger and Mabande does not live in Timbavati anymore.
Quote:No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
The info is relatively far-fetched. Smuts had weighed a total of 344 lions (158 males & 186 females) of all ages. In fact he just weighed 41 adult males in Kruger National park and the heaviest was 225 kg but had no stomach content. His sample generally lacked those big ones compared to the data provided by Roberts 1951 (132-251 kg, all ages n=17), MacFarlane and HuBerry
Quote:Measurements were recorded for 344 lions (Panthera leo) (158 males and 186 females), from Kruger National Park, South Africa. Growth in mass for males and females was linear up to about 36 months of age 0 = 0–98 and 0–99 respectively). The other age-specific measurements were clearly curvilinear. Mean weights for adult lions (excluding stomach contents) were 187.5 kg (males) and 124.2 kg (females) respectively.
Im not sure but wasnt Ximpoko confirmed to be 280 kg by the reserve and ecologist? These pics are from the user boldchamp
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Smuts had the largest and most reliable data base by far, most were from Kruger but he had some outside of that area as well. Stevenson-Hamilton shows similar weights as well as the others mentioned.
Timbavati is notorious for being a white lion breeding ground which is human influenced. There’s no reason for it to produce larger Lions than neighboring Kruger or anywhere else other than the human influence. It’s also a hunting reserve which makes money on any claim of the largest trophies being found there.
I’ve yet to read a single Hunter from the past who’s been to both E. And S. Africa mention the Lions in S. Africa as being larger than the ones in the East.
East Africa has the largest population of Lions left in the wild by far with the highest prey biomass. The only difference is that the hunting regulations are far more strict and limited there. And the largest Reserve is Selous but much more difficult to track animals compared to the 2nd largest which is the Serengeti and they don’t allow hunting at all. So most trophy hunters go to S. Africa so reserves there like to claim their lions as larger but when looking at real data prior to that influence the evidence doesn’t back those claims.
02-05-2022, 11:59 PM( This post was last modified: 02-06-2022, 12:00 AM by SpinoRex )
(02-05-2022, 11:07 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 09:53 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 09:24 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 08:57 PM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-05-2022, 08:51 PM)Hello Wrote: Not all reserves are semi-wild, there are some reserves in South Africa where lions are also fed additionally. For instance, take a look at lions from Aquila and Gondwana reserve.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Aquila game reserve
*This image is copyright of its original author
Gondwana reserve
These lions don't even look close to their wild counterparts as they have little amount of fat on them. The heavy manes on theses lions are entirely dependent on the climate.
Generally reserves have sometimes captive ones and wild ones. Reserve generally have nothing to do with captive animals and they shouldnt be linked to that. But some offer hunting and so on (Selati Game Reserve). Just because a lion is overweight it doesnt mean he is captive but the assumption is reasonable of course.
The second lion doesnt look fat and looks quite normal but he is gorged
Private hunting reserves really shouldn’t be considered truly wild. They are more of a hybrid between captive and wild.
No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
It depends on what reservations we're talking about. The game reserves we know and the ones that are famous have mainly wild animals. Reserves offer canned hunting, where the lions live in large areas but still in captivity (i.e. Rhino NP). But I have heard that Timbavati is supposedly classified as semi-wild, which could not make less sense when talking about Ximpoko and Mabande. Ximpoko was often in Kruger and Mabande does not live in Timbavati anymore.
Quote:No wild reserve has captive cats nor do they offer baits or control breedings and offspring. *unless a study is being done* Truly wild cats live a very different lifestyle. For instance, Smutts captured 300+ Lions, the largest ever weighed was 225kg but now you see claims of 280kg plus Lions in the same parks? Nothings changed, in fact there is less natural prey and land now compared to then. Unfortunately most of these parks survive off of Hunters dollars and the best way to get their money is to claim you have the largest lions. In modern days, the scientific community is the only reliable option while years past when hunting was much more limited to certain individuals, hunting weights were a better option.
The info is relatively far-fetched. Smuts had weighed a total of 344 lions (158 males & 186 females) of all ages. In fact he just weighed 41 adult males in Kruger National park and the heaviest was 225 kg but had no stomach content. His sample generally lacked those big ones compared to the data provided by Roberts 1951 (132-251 kg, all ages n=17), MacFarlane and HuBerry
Quote:Measurements were recorded for 344 lions (Panthera leo) (158 males and 186 females), from Kruger National Park, South Africa. Growth in mass for males and females was linear up to about 36 months of age 0 = 0–98 and 0–99 respectively). The other age-specific measurements were clearly curvilinear. Mean weights for adult lions (excluding stomach contents) were 187.5 kg (males) and 124.2 kg (females) respectively.
Im not sure but wasnt Ximpoko confirmed to be 280 kg by the reserve and ecologist? These pics are from the user boldchamp
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Smuts had the largest and most reliable data base by far, most were from Kruger but he had some outside of that area as well. Stevenson-Hamilton shows similar weights as well as the others mentioned.
Timbavati is notorious for being a white lion breeding ground which is human influenced. There’s no reason for it to produce larger Lions than neighboring Kruger or anywhere else other than the human influence. It’s also a hunting reserve which makes money on any claim of the largest trophies being found there.
I’ve yet to read a single Hunter from the past who’s been to both E. And S. Africa mention the Lions in S. Africa as being larger than the ones in the East.
East Africa has the largest population of Lions left in the wild by far with the highest prey biomass. The only difference is that the hunting regulations are far more strict and limited there. And the largest Reserve is Selous but much more difficult to track animals compared to the 2nd largest which is the Serengeti and they don’t allow hunting at all. So most trophy hunters go to S. Africa so reserves there like to claim their lions as larger but when looking at real data prior to that influence the evidence doesn’t back those claims.
They arent larger than E. Lions or in a unsignificant way. All result is due to conditioning and different food intake. As i said before look how weight is changing on humans....
Infos regarding the Homob Coalition by Gus Van dyk
Quote:In early 1993, I weighed three male lions that had been translocated from Etosha National Park (Namibia) to Pilanesberg National Park (South Africa). The three males were all from the same coalition, known as the “Homob” Males (a reference to the location where they were caught in Etosha) and each was branded with an individual mark (“C”, “U” and “V”). The lions were being held in a temporary holding camp of about a quarter of hectare prior to release and were fed whole carcasses while in the camp. I could thus say with confidence when they had last eaten. The three lions were all immobilised together and had not eaten for four days (they were thus regarded as having “empty” stomachs).
The largest male (Homob C) weighed 237kg and the smallest male (Homob V) weighed 222kg. I am unsure about the exact weight of the third male but recall it was around 230kg. Because lions can consume so much meat in one sitting, one is never sure just how much of the lions’ mass in the field consists of stomach contents. For this reason, I found no value in weighing any lions in the field. The Homob C male was thus the heaviest lion I ever weighed. I have not researched records of lion weights in any detail and have heard only anecdotes about exceptionally large male lions being shot in problem animal control or as hunting trophies. I suspect some of the really heavy weights reported have been animals shot, on a carcass, with full stomachs. This could easily add 20 to 30 kg to their actual weight (if not more). I wish you success with your research. Regards Gus van Dyk
Quote:The Homob male in Pilannesberg for example weighed 237kgs (pers coms Gus Van
Dyk) but he had just eaten- so arguably you can take of at least 20-30kg
Quote:The lions were being held in a temporary holding camp of about a quarter of hectare prior to release and were fed whole carcasses while in the camp. I could thus say with confidence when they had last eaten.
Quote:The three lions were all immobilised together and had not eaten for four days (they were thus regarded as having “empty” stomachs).
So I´m a bit confused right now.
First email said they had eaten before weighing. And second email has two conflicting sentences regarding the food content.
I’d also wonder how long they were confined. Being fed full carcasses without working for it is the equivalent to being captive. Empty or not means little if they’re sitting in an enclosure for an extended period of time.
(02-08-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote: I’d also wonder how long they were confined. Being fed full carcasses without working for it is the equivalent to being captive. Empty or not means little if they’re sitting in an enclosure for an extended period of time.
(02-08-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote: I’d also wonder how long they were confined. Being fed full carcasses without working for it is the equivalent to being captive. Empty or not means little if they’re sitting in an enclosure for an extended period of time.
He wrote me around 6 weeks. So not that long
That's a really long time actually.
Look how specific we are just mentioning big cats who are hunted or collared from the wild and whether they are baited or not. These lions were baited for over a month without hunting or living a natural life.
That will certainly make a difference in body weight.
Quote:The Homob male in Pilannesberg for example weighed 237kgs (pers coms Gus Van
Dyk) but he had just eaten- so arguably you can take of at least 20-30kg
Quote:The lions were being held in a temporary holding camp of about a quarter of hectare prior to release and were fed whole carcasses while in the camp. I could thus say with confidence when they had last eaten.
Quote:The three lions were all immobilised together and had not eaten for four days (they were thus regarded as having “empty” stomachs).
So I´m a bit confused right now.
First email said they had eaten before weighing. And second email has two conflicting sentences regarding the food content.
It says he knows when they eat. But he isnt saying they were gorged. It seems Rob misunderstood something
02-09-2022, 02:02 AM( This post was last modified: 02-09-2022, 02:06 AM by SpinoRex )
(02-09-2022, 01:51 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-09-2022, 01:33 AM)SpinoRex Wrote:
(02-08-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote: I’d also wonder how long they were confined. Being fed full carcasses without working for it is the equivalent to being captive. Empty or not means little if they’re sitting in an enclosure for an extended period of time.
He wrote me around 6 weeks. So not that long
That's a really long time actually.
Look how specific we are just mentioning big cats who are hunted or collared from the wild and whether they are baited or not. These lions were baited for over a month without hunting or living a natural life.
That will certainly make a difference in body weight.
I asked him when they exactly weighed the lionsand how much food they exactly got. In 6 weeks there wont be big changes. As there is a reason why the info was quoted by them as wild lions(Rob).
I aksed him also about the lions before the camp and after the camp. As they got carcasses it means they only ate what they got.
So i will uptade the information when i get a new mail
Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions
