Modern Weights and Measurements of Leopards

[Pckts]

(01-28-2023, 02:05 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-28-2023, 05:34 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-28-2023, 12:12 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-27-2023, 07:16 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-27-2023, 12:04 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 09:30 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 07:32 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 04:42 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 03:25 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(01-26-2023, 02:14 AM)Pckts Wrote: You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented. 
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions. 

What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.  
Nice try though
Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.

 
Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot. 
Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from? 
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding. 
I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*

Quote:You do realize that this cat was captured no differently and claims were made. Yet no clarification or proof of said claims have been presented. 
You also interpreting a report means little, we've already seen numerous members here try to do the same on post mortem reports only to get in trouble for making assumptions. 

You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).

I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.

Quote:What are you not understanding? The same person who weighed and presented Jokers measurements also presented Mangos. You know, the one who provided actual capture dates and corresponding body measurements and weighing protocols.  
Nice try though

Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?

Quote:Literally the Tanzanian Leopard hanging from the scale is a FB trophy hunter post. The weight claims mean nothing as they will load the cats with weights or have faulty scales.

I had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?

Quote:Of course it does if they're actively updating a table or else you're left with errors like what happened with the persian table. The fact that you don't seem to understand this or acknowledge it says a lot. 

Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.

Quote:Which weighing was he there for? The 115kg? The 98kg? The about 100kg? The 95kg? Or maybe it has to do with the fact that he doesn't have the measurements or capture data and needs to be told what publication they are from? 
Once again, the amount of excuses you try and make for the Jaguar table on being invalid while accepting weights without any actual data or proof for persian leopards is astounding. 

Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.

You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.

Quote:I'm not sure you know what 2nd hand means?
Van Neer wasn't present during the capture of these cats. They are by definition 2nd hand *belonged to someone else*

Again, they measured the skulls themselves . They borrowed the skulls from two Belgian museums who did not measure them. The measurements are therefore from a first-hand source.

Quote:You do realise the proof is right there in front of you, backing Iman Memarian's claims (hint: report).

I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding post mortem reports but in this case we're dealing with a live cat although they were about to put it out of its misery.

Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed. 

Quote:Why don't you share everything about 'Mango' instead of an "about X-"weight. And give me "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of outlier male Lopez. Those are your own criteria so you should be able to right?

Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water. 

Quote:I  had a sneaky suspicion you were talking about that male. I actually received it from a professional hunter active in Central African Republic. He got it directly from a client in Tanzania. He's actually going to Masailand after the current season. The only reason I shared it is because of the scale which 'verifies' the weight. I know it's not 100% certain this weight is accurate but doesn't his size and full belly make it somewhat believable?

A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve? 
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?  
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure. 
And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed. 
Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.

Quote:Lopez' being added twice isn't the only error. I have more remarks which I already addressed but I'm still waiting for answers. Feel free to PM me when you have some answers since it's off-topic here.

Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table. 
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.

Quote:Well you doubted his presence overall despite him appearing in almost every photo. He's a wildlife veterinarian which makes me assume he was there almost the whole time since he's involved in rescuing the cat. The 2014 study mentioned the exceptional male's weight with Iman Memarian as the source (i.e. personal communication). I contacted him and he said the same thing to me. You and AndresVida did too and again received the same information. Now there's an offical report where the decision or proposal is made to euthanize the cat, meaning nothing life-saving can be done. At this point he weighed 95kg.

You questioning the official report signed by Memarian and two more professors with no reason is what I call astounding.

How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?

Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.

Quote:Lets simplify, you are making assumptions based off a report that presents no real verification of multiple weights claimed. 

By now I have explained enough about the report. You deem the report not a true verification but merely an assumption. We are seeing things differently here. You deem an Instagram message from a biologist worthy of a verification, but a signed clinical report by a wildlife veterinarian and professors isn't.

Quote:Why? So you can avoid the proof and go back to some ridiculous argument involving the Tables validity that holds no water.

I already told you why; because these are your criteria. You question literally anything about leopard's weights (e.g. scale presence, scale capacity, ...) but it isn't vice versa for jaguars. So I'd like to see "weighing procedure, scale used, body measurements, etc." of jaguar Lopez. Funnily you once said "Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the measurements on the Monster 148kg Jag measured by Hoogesteijin but if we could get them then that would really be interesting." so it's not that you refuse to share it, it's because you can't.

Quote:A professional Hunter got it 2nd hand from a trophy client in a trophy hunting reserve?

Indeed he received it directly from a client.

Quote:And you obviously don't know what you're talking about with regards to "masailand"
Is he talking about a Lodge in Arusha or the private hunting company?
"Masai Land" is anywhere Masai live and that would be throughout Tanzania and neighboring countries I'm sure.

We're not talking about a lodge or a company at all. I know very well what I'm talking about and so does the professional hunter. We're talking about the region Masailand which stretches across southern Kenya and northern Tanzania:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:And the scale verifies nothing, trophy hunters will hide beef and weights in their catches to exaggerate the weights, you see this in fishing as well. Hence why SCI doesn't record weights because they can be skewed.

I know cheating happens in fishing sport like recently a champion fisher got caught adding weight to his fish in the US. But funny that you mention SCI since some time ago you said that "Weights aren't required for score but the few we have from the top 10 list have been sub 90kg." So that's great to hear that the weights are possibly skewed.

Quote:Lastly you comparing a private trophy hunters claim to a verified weight from the biologist involved is a joke.

Wow hold on, it was you who brought up "FB trophy hunter posts/claims", not me. I never compared the two because as I've said before, comparing hunter records to scientific ones is comparing apples to oranges. I suggest you take that back.

Quote:Of course it was, don't be ridiculous. Your interpretations mean little since you and her had numerous debates over the table.
The table as it stands is by far the most in depth of its kind, almost all of the weights come from first hand sources. The fact that you try and deny that is on you but it's wrong.

I have some valid remarks on the most recent table so again you can PM me with the explanation or you can forward my remarks to the creator.

Quote:How many of those photos are of the cat being weighed?
How many of them involve measurements?

Once again, an "official report" that is left to interpretation doesn't make your weight claims valid.

You said he was never there just so you can question the weights he provided. You received voice messages from him explaining everything (you should be thankful) and now I present you the clinical report signed by him and two more professors. Still the weight isn't valid and everything is just an assumption. Please help me know the difference between a biologist, a wildlife veterinarian and two professors of surgery and radiology department. Because the words coming from the biologist mean more to you. Why?

Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.

Except with regards to "masailand"
 
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.

Quote:Nothing above is worth responding too at this stage.

That's the easy way out. You got cornered so as usual you abandon the discussion.

Quote:The area you just highlighted is the Masai's legal land. It's where the government allocated their property and agreed to let them still live there amongst the wild, similar to what you see in the states for Native Americans except that was originally their homeland. It's not a park or reserve.

So you admit it's a region/area now? I thought it was "a Lodge in Arusha" or "a private hunting company"? I know very well who inhabits Masailand and am aware of it not being a park or reserve. This doesn't change the fact that this specific leopard was hunted in this region, in the Tanzanian part.

Try reading more carefully next time

*This image is copyright of its original author

Copy-pasting your post isn't going to change the fact that you were wrong. It was neither a lodge or a hunting company. It was the region itself the hunter was talking about just like Rowland Wards Records mentions two leopards being from Masailand. You posted it yourself (post #349)

Let’s try this one last time

*This image is copyright of its original author

Check post #386 for the map of Masailand where the leopard has been hunted.

What are you not getting?
Tanzani and Kenya are countries next to one another. AKA “neighboring countries”

*This image is copyright of its original author

That area in read is where Masai inhabit. It’s not a park or reserve. 
Masai land could be Ngorongoro, Tarangire, Serengeti, Masai Mara, Selous, etc. Reply