There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(01-20-2025, 02:00 AM)Rui Ferreira Wrote: May I start the first debate on this thread?
So I was watching a reel on instagram about a litter of cubs that lost their mother in Kruger ( dont remember wich pride) and I just happend to go see the comments, and as usual there were people saying " save the cubs" " why didnt they help the mother" the usual, I am on the side that we should always not intervene when the problem isnt men made, but the " save the cubs" for some reason put me with alot of questions such as:
For example in these reserves where you dont have that much genetic diversity, or in new reserves that eventually need to get their first lions in to stabilize the ecosystem etc... couldnt for example cubs in Kruger with 0 survival chances like not having a mother etc instead of dying and being just a couple thousand calories to hyenas, vultures you name it, is it moraly wrong to use those cubs for conservation purposes? " But you gotta respect the natural selection process" I mean when you´re a little cub most of your survival isnt about how tough you can be but more so by how lucky you are..
As dark as it might be, those those couple of thousands of calories might be the difference between a mother hyena or wild dog going home to feed their own cubs.
Taking in wild animals is also considered a big no no in Zoos as it encourages poaching and the few zoos or reserves that are capable to take in wild animals ethically have a waiting list and typically only help local animals.
There are also plenty of lions stuck in unacceptable conditions in shady third rate zoos and circuses which also need help.
Quote:And leaves me with other questions like, animals in zoos ( lets use lions as an example) could lions all over the world in zoos be used to populate these reserves, obviously theres that thing that most cant hunt, more or less is the truth because there should be ways of testing that,
While zoo animals are in theory capable of hunting and surviving on their own. Their genetic makeup has been altered by several generations of unnatural selection. Especially in the darker history of the zoo, the ones that could adapt to being locked in a overpopulated cage got to reproduce. This slightly altered the species to be more social and less aggressive.
On their own, in a empty reserve. These animals may return to their wild life fairly easily with some training. Now that zoos are giving lions the space and freedom to be more lions we see them falling back to pretty much the same behaviour they display in the wild. Zookeepers typically have to remove a couple of cadavers each week of the local rabbit and goose population from their predator habitats.
Though I do worry what happens if you just throw a zoo pride and coalition in Sabi Sands right now with its current population of much more competive lions, as these animals are more bred to be meek and submissive.
So I would consider this a last ditch effort. If wild lions can be found to fill the gap, it would be better.
Quote: but lets they cant ( wich we have examples that they can but anyway) could we have a pride of lionesses and use artificial insimination from lion sperm of males in zoos to pregnate those lionesses in those prides, it would do wonders to the genetic diversity in the population, but that could only work if there was no male around because he either mate with those females and we are left without knowing who the father of those cubs really are , or he doesnt mate and decides to kill the cubs that arent his
Either way thats just me brainstorming
Lions don't have sexual education. The females may have a inkling as they may notice they start notice that each time they feel pregnant it happens between mating and giving birth. But for the males, the idea of mating resulting in cubs is a completely alien concept. Cubs are just weird smaller lions the lionesses get somewhere and bring home. Let alone they understand the idea that cubs are theirs.
So I doubt artificial insemination is going to cause much issues provided you don't interrupt the process of the cubs introduction within the pride.
There also isn't as much genetic diversity in the zoo as we would like. Before EAZA and other programs, it was pretty much every zoo for himself and only few zoos were successful at breeding lions. For example, nearly every lion in Europe and America can genetically traced back to a past breeding program in Royal Burgers Zoo in Arnhem, the Netherlands.
So again, this in combination of the in bred meekness, if you can find a wild lion to repopulate, its better to use that.
Offcource that is not to say that these programs don't have value. Even if currently no lions are released in the wild it may still be needed in the future. They are important ambassadors to animal life as a while and the zoos do bring in a lot of money to aid conservation programs. But the situation for lions luckily is not severe enough to make the releasing some of their back up population into the wild a necessity.
01-21-2025, 08:21 PM( This post was last modified: 01-21-2025, 08:25 PM by Rui Ferreira )
(01-20-2025, 04:05 AM)RookiePundit Wrote: I think lions as a species are not such a priority and it would be more doing it because of them being charismatic megafauna species, there will be species that need help more and where every individual counts, but are not as popular
Yes I fully agree with this take but we do also know or atleast thats what I think that when starting a reserve from the zero like we see in Mozambique or what happend in Madikwe is much easier to control the population of herbivores that also need help in getting their numbers up like Giraffes and in general its easier in general to not risk them going extinct compared to territorial predators like lions/hyenas even cheetahs, obviously in cases such as elephants or rhinos you have the big risk of poaching but thats something impossible to control at what densisty it happend atleast in my view wich Im seeing from a simple point of view I must admit
(01-20-2025, 02:35 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: I actually think this is the direction that Kevin Richardson is going to go in with his foundation when all of his lions finally pass (his lions live to 20+ it seems).
Yup I´ve heard that aswell, I admire what he does to the animals and I think he is such an example , I cant help thinking that his male lions are not castrated and we´ve seen videos of them hunting and showing signs of being capable of doing well in the wild, obviously Im not saying that we should just leave one of those males in a reserve like Kruger with other males born in the wild not at all, but again and Im really focusing on newly made reserves and the introduction of animals in such closed ecosystems, but lets say we have a pride of females in a part of the reserve and another pride in an area where they arent able of interact ( still same reserve) to really start things how out of the picture would it be to make a selection of what males would thrive the most in the wild and put two males in each part of the reserve only with females and no other males that might kill or seriously injure them , thats a question that I´ve been having for quite a while, after those males raise cubs into adulthood that were fully born in the wild you could either reform those males and put them in a sanctuary and/or open the borders for the whole reserve and let the prides interact for some genetic fresh air, or use those two mini reserves inside of just one as like a breeding program that creates wild born lions ( and when I say lions we could say about other animals too but this forum is about lions ) and populate other reserves
(01-20-2025, 05:36 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: But the situation for lions luckily is not severe enough to make the releasing some of their back up population into the wild a necessity.
Sorry everyone for the second comment in a row I just didnt figure out how to edit the last comment and reply in that same comment ( did that even made sense , not sure )
and Sorry @Duco Ndona I forgot to reply to you
Im glad that it isnt, I just felt under the impression that it was from seeing so many articles talking about how quickly the numbers are going down etc
but the same premisse can be made not only for lions but for many animals in general, I really think that zoos and sanctuarys could have a more important role from just being ambassadors of such animal
Science is evolving and it just open room to brainstorm many possibilities that in some cases might be worth a shot
Anyway I want to thank you guys for your time in the replys from my comment, thank you all
(01-20-2025, 04:05 AM)RookiePundit Wrote: In the special cases that one could think about that, specifically in case of Kruger I would still do nothing because of the prevalent bovine tuberculosis. One thing is spreading it out, introducing it to other places, the other is how dangerous it is for humans (it might have already skipped to humans, but due to its nature of staying dormant for quite some time and the regional specifics to put it mildly, it won't be known).
As for zoos, most will focus on Asiatic lions instead (iirc remember correctly those are not present in north american zoos though) or some sort of legacy population like Barbary lions or are keeping generic african lions from circuses, private keepers confiscations you name it, or some just don't care about conservation that much. It's still good idea in principle, but I'm sceptical about the whole ordeal of importing a lion to a reputable zoo abroad being worth it and to even have a solid chance of going through. Too many would ask "what is in it for me" or have ulterior motives outright beyond just usual impotence you find everywhere these days.
The AI etc. I think lions as a species are not such a priority and it would be more doing it because of them being charismatic megafauna species, there will be species that need help more and where every individual counts, but are not as popular.
(01-21-2025, 08:33 PM)Rui Ferreira Wrote:
(01-20-2025, 05:36 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: But the situation for lions luckily is not severe enough to make the releasing some of their back up population into the wild a necessity.
Sorry everyone for the second comment in a row I just didnt figure out how to edit the last comment and reply in that same comment ( did that even made sense , not sure )
and Sorry @Duco Ndona I forgot to reply to you
Im glad that it isnt, I just felt under the impression that it was from seeing so many articles talking about how quickly the numbers are going down etc
but the same premisse can be made not only for lions but for many animals in general like wild dogs for example, I really think that zoos and sanctuarys could have a more important role from just being ambassadors of such animal
Science is evolving and it just open room to brainstorm many possibilities that in some cases might be worth a shot
Anyway I want to thank you guys for your time in the replys from my comment, thank you all
Madikwe Game Reserve Lions
