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Lions of Timbavati

United States criollo2mil Offline
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There will likely be more videos that will leak out. There were several guides present for the majority of the fight. Many taking video. Some pics.

A ranger I spoke with said that Avoca YM watched from a distance after being separated . Shaka ran and separated them then returned to Join ZZ to finish Guernsey.

Many are criticizing AYM for “leaving” his partner and not help. I find that ludicrous cause anyone can tell that his was not ready. As a 4 years old nomad, there was nothing he could have done. But get killed also. The size , strength confidence and experience difference sealed this.

Guernsey had spent over a week mating. He was most likely depleted of energies or at least running low. This was a factor in him being trapped I would assume.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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I remember seeing videos and photos of Avoca and Guernsey together side by side and the younger male looked quite taller... And that was months ago. I think he had size.

But expecting him to save his partner is just too much, indeed. Even bigger coalitions of young males, brothers with strong bond, fail to do that in such circumstances. Just look at the NYM male recently, his brothers and father didn't save him.

Guernsey and Avoca were dealing with the strongest lions we've seen, it was obvious that if the Mbiris were in good shape their rivals wouldn't stand a chance.

The angle isn't good since Guernsey is lying down, but Mbiris seems to have much more massive bodies. Even if the Avoca YM had tried to save him, everything considered from experience to skills and strength, I doubt he'd have been able to save his partner.
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239Pu Offline
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(03-20-2024, 11:24 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: There will likely be more videos that will leak out.   There were several guides present for the majority of the fight.   Many taking video.   Some pics.  

A ranger I spoke with said that Avoca YM watched from a distance after being separated .    Shaka ran and separated them then returned to Join ZZ to finish Guernsey.  

Many are criticizing AYM for “leaving” his partner and not help.    I find that ludicrous cause anyone can tell that his was not ready.   As a 4 years old nomad, there was nothing he could have done.    But get killed also.   The size , strength confidence and experience difference sealed this.  

Guernsey had spent over a week mating.   He was most likely depleted of energies or at least running low.  This was a factor in him being trapped I would assume.
I think a 2v2 would be a stalemate every time even if one side is stronger. How old was Olomina when he fought Jesse?



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Tr1x24 Offline
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(03-20-2024, 11:24 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: Many are criticizing AYM for “leaving” his partner and not help.    I find that ludicrous cause anyone can tell that his was not ready.   As a 4 years old nomad, there was nothing he could have done.    But get killed also.   The size , strength confidence and experience difference sealed this.

Yea, we cant blame young Avoca, but as I said, I had my concerns that he was getting drawn into something he was not ready yet.

Guernsey is 6 yrs old and coming into his prime, he is full of testosterone and more then ready for this, but his partner is around 2 yrs younger (cant remember exact birth dates) and when they got chance to mate with females, Avoca was prob just following his older partner, prob even encouraged by him and their success over past few months.

So unless conditions of ageing Ross males (although not sure if they had any clashes with them) and especially Mbiris continued to go downhill fast, it was hard to believe they could beat them straight in 2vs2 fight at this moment, as young Avocas is prob ~1 year away from being useful in a fight like this.

This kinda remainds me of Addo boys fight vs Kawandwe and Monomoholo, where 2nd male couldnt do anything to help his brother as in 1 vs1 he couldnt beat male who was chasing him away.

Another thing I want to say, which we discussed around BDMs vs Kambulas topic, when someone said that coalitions "scout" the area and target weakest coalitions in the area.. yea about that..

I think having available females for mating plays bigger role then strenght of territorial coalition (OM, Nhenha and now Guernsey pretty much died because of females, as they pretty much challenged strongest coalitions in the area because they had available females on their territory).
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Duco Ndona Offline
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Its good that videos like these are released. I have never been a fan of withholding them out of respect or it being to hard to watch. Its not like we do that when some poor Antilope gets caught by a lion. 
It also gives access to information for those that want to study lions but don't have access to the private connections and saves a lot of speculation or conspiracy theories.

Judging on the footage, it seems they did him more a favour by killing him. His spine was already broken and the only thing left was to starve to death. 
I think they first jumped Guernsey and broke his spine. Then directed their attention to the Avoca male which ran off. Unable to catch him, they then returned to Guernsey which was still lying there paralyzed and finished him off. 

And yeah. I don't blame Avoca for leaving. When two lions attack you, your first instinct is to flee. By the time he realized his partner didn't manage to escape, it was already to late. 
This isn't Hollywood. Dying together in a epic final battle makes great movies, but terrible life choices.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@239Pu Mara/Eastern lions develop much quicker than Kruger lions.

Still both Jesse and Oloimina are/were some of the strongest lions up there in Mara, and even then Oloimina seemingly got much more of a beating.

In 2v2 they never fight forever, once one side is clearly losing, one male escapes and the other gets 2v1.
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Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-21-2024, 01:02 AM by Tr1x24 )

(03-20-2024, 11:55 PM)Mapokser Wrote: I remember seeing videos and photos of Avoca and Guernsey together side by side and the younger male looked quite taller... And that was months ago. I think he had size.

1 thing is size, another is strenght. We saw how Guernsey easily dominated young Avoca for mating rights. Obiviously its not a real fight, but good indicator that Guernsey is stronger male atm. Both Mbiris are bigger and prob stronger then Guernsey, so young Avoca in a 1vs1 vs Mbiri males doesnt stand a chance.

(03-20-2024, 11:55 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Even if the Avoca YM had tried to save him, everything considered from experience to skills and strength, I doubt he'd have been able to save his partner.

Problem is when 2 males catch and pin down 1 male, in majority cases battle is already lost, as they do quick damage to that male by biting him on groin, legs or spine, and then 1 male, who is on the head, holds that male down, while 2nd goes off to clash his partner. 

That partner now needs to go thru 2 males to save his partner, and unless he is much stronger in 1vs1 then that male, its impossible to do so.
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United Kingdom Hairy tummy Offline
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I used to really struggle watching lion fights/fatal footage.being on here toughened me up,it really is kill or be killed,nature at its most brutal in the lion world
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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As for the nomadic males looking for the weakest coalition, I don't think what happened here proves this notion wrong.

Guernsey and Avoca were avoiding Mbiris until Shaka got injured and Scar too when Ngala reported that the Mbiris were going east into Kruger and returning with new injuries.

Guernsey and Avoca took the opportunity to push against Mbiris and attack their pride. They felt Mbiris were weak at that point.

But they probably didn't realize that the Mbiris were back to good shape, and pushed too far.
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Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-21-2024, 02:05 AM by Tr1x24 )

(03-21-2024, 01:48 AM)Mapokser Wrote: As for the nomadic males looking for the weakest coalition, I don't think what happened here proves this notion wrong.

Guernsey and Avoca were avoiding Mbiris until Shaka got injured and Scar too when Ngala reported that the Mbiris were going east into Kruger and returning with new injuries.

Guernsey and Avoca took the opportunity to push against Mbiris and attack their pride. They felt Mbiris were weak at that point.

But they probably didn't realize that the Mbiris were back to good shape, and pushed too far.

Still, big factor why they "chose" this area where few "Mbiri" females who where available for mating.

As where in Nhenha/NK case, where they go against prob strongest duo in area in PCMs.

Aswell as in Othawa Male case.

I dont think males think too much who are their opponents when theres females in estrus around.

As in Kambulas case, they where in the north and pushing for BDMs area when 3 NK females where in estrus, since that, they are not that much interested in that area looks like as they returned back to roaming larger area.

In majority of takeovers (not always), starting points are often females in estrus.
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United States afortich Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-21-2024, 08:06 AM by afortich )

Well, I expressed my frustration based on a vague statement that said Avoca YM was there during the fight, which brought me memories of Nhenha and obviously it is frustrating.
The reasons why Avoca YM didn't get involved were not said or to be determined, so I guess we have to wait for more details and hopefully my frustation may go away thereafter.
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Ttimemarti Offline
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So the avoca male is only 4 years old?
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@Tr1x24 I don't disagree about the females in estrus part, obviously they attract males.

But the Kambulas never lost interest in the north, in fact I think they are there right now.

They went south following buffalo but then returned and are always in Londolozi and the north which was always their "territory" since K4 started mating with the NK females.

As for Nhenha and NK, they were actually competing with Tumbelas and with Limper in bad shape it was just his brother opposing them.

So they were the weakest coalition as far as these 2 were concerned. They got Ximhungwe and then the Othawa Breakaway and eventually ousted Tumbela.

Then 2 months or so later the PCM challenged them for their territory, Nhenha tried to chase them off, failed and they were ousted, after that they were never fully territorial anymore and would mostly roam Ndhzenga territory, not exploring other areas, and with the Ndhznegas being 4 there was nothing they could do, so they wouls return west where they had 2 females but always flee when they heard the PCM in the West.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@afortich Criollo said here that Shaka split them and Scar caught Guernsey while they were separated.

Willdfreelions saya the same thing but with the difference that he claims Shaka was the one to catch Guernsey before his brother arrived to finish the job.

In both versions Avoca was there. The problem was that, like others said, he wasn't ready to risk such a 2v2 fight.
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1999gc8 Offline
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The same footage was shown on wildfreelions instragram and in the description it said that shaka managed to separate the Guernsey male and caught him alone.  Zizag returned and helped finish him off.
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