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Lions of Timbavati
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 (03-29-2024, 08:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:(03-29-2024, 05:16 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Limping Monwana male and Hercules male encounter. Apparently the Monwana male joined the Giraffe Pride on a kill and things got heated. Not 100% positive on the outcome but it was said by someone else that Hercules didn't launch a full scale (paraphrasing) attack on him. Thanks for the update, tried to find more on the aftermath but came up short earlier today. He looks rough no doubt, but at least he's still alive.  
He looks good, considering, so at least it appears he is able to get some meals.
 (03-24-2024, 02:37 PM)lionuk Wrote: The Mbiri are very sadistic and very brutal males. They went overboard with that poor Guernsey male The more time has gone by, the more I wholeheartedly agree. Overboard and above and beyond a la Kinky Tail kind of death. But, unlike Kinky Tail and his brother, he and his partner never killed a single cub or lioness, as far as I know. A simple, stern warning, could have sufficed, maybe? But what they did??!! I don't think Guernsey even realized just who he was dealing with, and that the Mbiris are just as blood-thirsty as ever the Mapogos were, being built from the same mind-set. (The sole difference is that there are only 2 Mbiris, thank goodness!) All were raised by aggressive males, that only ruled with an iron-fist. (or paw, in a lion's case) It's killings such as these that make me rethink and wonder if there are good/not so good characters in animals....like for people, in a sense, as animals also vary greatly in character....makes you wonder a lot. (03-29-2024, 08:53 PM)criollo2mil Wrote:(03-29-2024, 05:16 AM)Mwk85 Wrote: Limping Monwana male and Hercules male encounter. Apparently the Monwana male joined the Giraffe Pride on a kill and things got heated. Not 100% positive on the outcome but it was said by someone else that Hercules didn't launch a full scale (paraphrasing) attack on him. Considering what happened to the Guernsey Male, I only could have wished it ended as 'well' for him.... Looks like he was beat up, but he should survive. It's just that leg that will be his Achille's heel in the end. The cuts and bruises ought to heal unless his immune system is shot. 
Mbiris have killed cubs and at least one lioness before.
When they were taking over the Birmingham pride they chased them off in 2022 and killed a cub. And in 2017 when they were 3,5yo they chased the 2 Mapoza males and their pride ( IIRC Giraffe pride ) and killed the white lioness. 
Animals have different characters, and their own moral codes, but they are first and foremost ruthless pragmatics.
The Guernsey male was a threat. So they broke his spine. Then, necessity forced them to see him a as a source of food. Skin is extremely though to bite through, even for a lion. So ignoring any wounds, there are only two spots to open a body. The mouth and the anus. The front of the Guernsey was still dangerous as he was only paralyzed, so they avoided that part of the lions body. Leaving only the anus. Being paralysed the Guernsey probably wasnt aware of whats going on. But he did lash out when his rivals came to close. It was not about inflicting extra pain or revenge. Just practicality and survival. (04-01-2024, 01:32 AM)Cath2020 Wrote:(03-24-2024, 02:37 PM)lionuk Wrote: The Mbiri are very sadistic and very brutal males. They went overboard with that poor Guernsey male I don't think good or not good, right or wrong, enters into it. Animals don't have such checks and balances, they just do, and once they have done whatever it is that they did, they don't give it a second thought, it is a brutal world, for sure, but to see things that way, I believe, is anthropomorphism. Many find Dark Mane Avoca, and Othawa Male as well, to be what one might consider chill for lions, certainly less brutal than say the Mbiri Males or the Mapogos, yet, make no mistake, they too had it in them in certain circumstances. I have witnessed the results of humans being even worse to not only one another but to innocent creatures as well. I grew up spending the vast majority of my time in the woods and swamps of Florida, even in the pitch dark, among countless other places, and never once have I feared what an animal might do to me (we won't discuss the time I happened to walk through the middle of a covey of quail, while walking through thick palmetto bushes that were about 15' high, at 4:30AM, and in the pitch dark and total silence I was suddenly being pelted on all sides by quail that burst into the air, not knowing where to go because they couldn't see, and making tremendous noise, we'll not talk about that  ). I cannot say the same when I have been in some of the worst places for a person to be at that particular time, like Ramadi in 2005/06, and Fallujah, Baghdad, Mosul, and countless other locations in that country until 2011, or even on the streets of some of the cities in my own country, I am much more guarded around people than wild animals. I find the brutality of man to be far worse than any creature, simply because we do know right from wrong, good from evil, and in spite of possessing that knowledge we are still capable of immense brutality.
 (04-01-2024, 02:50 AM)BA0701 Wrote: I find the brutality of man to be far worse than any creature, simply because we do know right from wrong, good from evil, and in spite of possessing that knowledge we are still capable of immense brutality.Humans will do bad things out of pure cruelty and evil. Meanwhile animals to it for survival. Whether it's brutal or not doesn't matter to them. They do what they think is necessary for the survival of their own. I agree that humans can be scarier, luckily we are not as strong as these animals lol (physically ofc)  (04-01-2024, 01:32 AM)Cath2020 Wrote:I strongly disagree. Wild animals don't subscribe to our morals and values and therefore aren't bound to them in any way. There was nothing sadistic or overboard with what the Mbiri males did in killing the Guernsey male. They eliminated a threat to their territory, pride and cubs, thus ensuring stability in the area and fulfilling their role as pride males. The manner in which they did it means little to nothing in the grand scheme of things. There is no good and bad in Nature.(03-24-2024, 02:37 PM)lionuk Wrote: The Mbiri are very sadistic and very brutal males. They went overboard with that poor Guernsey male
Oh but not quite. Nature is brutal and the more we see it as it is, the more we appreciate just how removed we are from it. At least in my opinion. This is what separates us from animals....wild or otherwise. What I witnessed with these forces of nature makes me all the more realize the brutality of it, the primitiveness of it, yet this has a certain appeal to some, such as to me, if I'm honest.
What the Mbiris did was not normal behavior, even by lion standards. Maybe it's becoming more common in the KNP area due to how we have forced these animals to evolved. But is it really the way we want them to evolve? I don't think we see such behavior a lot in other parks. It's not par for the course that lions will kill and then consume their opponents alive, eating the whole body, dragging the corpse around for days....engaging in overzealous cannibalism with such relish. Even regarding prey, they usually don't consume them alive. There is a pointed calculation in their behavior, beyond just killing ones opponent, which they could have merely done. I won't go so far as to say diabolical or evil, because I don't believe wild animals live by our rules, obviously. If you can calmly watch what was done to the Guernsey Male and not question such behavior whatsoever, then I wonder more than what goes on behind the minds of some animals, ever changing in the wild.... There is no judgement as if a human committed such acts, because if we go that far, then, according to the 'rules of the wild' (which is heavily influenced by humans) the GM would have to also be blamed for the mistakes he made, which he did, else he wouldn't have been so brutally taken advantaged of. However, there is compassion, and nobody is going to fault me for feeling that towards him and having thoughts in my mind that what was done to him was over-the-top, however long or short-term these thoughts last. (04-02-2024, 04:40 AM)Cath2020 Wrote: Oh but not quite. Nature is brutal and the more we see it as it is, the more we appreciate just how removed we are from it. At least in my opinion. This is what separates us from animals....wild or otherwise. What I witnessed with these forces of nature makes me all the more realize the brutality of it, the primitiveness of it, yet this has a certain appeal to some, such as to me, if I'm honest. I wouldn't fault you for having those thoughts, at all. As I mentioned I have not even watched the entire videos of this incident, and yes it was incredibly brutal. Lions feeding on their vanquished foe, especially while they're still alive, is not the norm at all. Certainly in the vast majority of the videos I have seen. Though it has happened, as we are all aware, it is not common by any stretch. I was merely pointing out that humans do know fully that when they are behaving in such a brutal way that it is wrong to do. That individual may not feel in their mind that it is wrong, but they know that by societal standards it is looked upon as being wrong. This is an interesting conversation to have, but one that is better suited for the Miscellaneous Section of the site, where I'll continue my comments and tag you, so we can continue our discussion if you'd like. Miscellaneous Section |
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