There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
03-23-2025, 10:20 PM( This post was last modified: 03-23-2025, 10:20 PM by Tr1x24 )
(03-23-2025, 10:12 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Do u think they will struggle against these coalitions even in 1y from now?
We cant know that.
Some coalitions/males become confident and can match territorial males at very early stages, some later, and some will always be "afraid" and will settle for nomadic lifestyle.
03-23-2025, 10:49 PM( This post was last modified: 03-23-2025, 11:21 PM by Ngonya )
MalaMala latest video featuring smaller Ndzhenga (Eorenji) roaring at the beginning and two of the Nkuhlu males (Smudge and Crooked Tail) with a Sand River lioness at 7:23
03-23-2025, 11:08 PM( This post was last modified: 03-23-2025, 11:11 PM by MrLoesoe )
(03-23-2025, 10:11 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote:
(03-23-2025, 04:06 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Monwanas showed aggression and courage from a young age but they are not strong enough yet for a duo like Mantimahles. Also, take into account that they have been a bit scattered the last half year or so, now they are only with the three brothers, not 4+.
They could take Nkuhumas but it won't be easy, with Kruger male around (they could defeat him yes), and also Mantimahle males who like to venture into northern Sabi Sands.
Something like the Mbiri pride would be easier for them and I personally hope they stay in Manyeleti. It would be good genetics wise for both Mbiri pride and Nharu pride to get a takeover.
Taking over the Nharus, however, won't be an easy task, with Red Road there being very close to the pride lately - he will protect at all cost, I think - his son, who hasn't been tested yet but physically is quite a force now, and females who will protect their young offspring at a very high cost. Imo Mbiri pride would be their best bet, no cubs there currently, and would provide a good natural moment for Nzuri and his younger brother to become nomads.
All of this highly speculative of course, haven't seen an update on the three Monwana brothers in Manyeleti for a week or so, curious to know what they are up to...
Wow interesting. When exactly did monwanas show aggression and courage and what did they exactly do?
Definitely agree with u genetic wise aswell.
There is one video when the Monwana young males were still with the pride and another young male (Avoca, older than them) was eating with them on a kill, then their father Mapoza arrived (actually also the father of the Avoca male) and clashed with the Avoca, and you see the young Monwanas immediately joining their father in the fight, one even goes straight for the neck. Real aggressive.
I think this was the main experience that people labeled them as relatively aggressive and courageous. After they left the pride they also had a clash with Red Road male when they were with Nharu females (or on a kill can't remember). RR chased them away
Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
All of this is discussed on this forum, try to look for it using Google search you will find the discussions insightful I'm sure (or feel free to ask ofc). Also on youtube the footage is there of these clashes.
But we shouldn't overestimate them at this stage yet, theoretically they have the numbers and also the aggression the Kambulas lack, but they're still young, we have to see
03-23-2025, 11:54 PM( This post was last modified: 03-23-2025, 11:55 PM by Tr1x24 )
(03-23-2025, 11:08 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote:
(03-23-2025, 10:11 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote:
(03-23-2025, 04:06 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Monwanas showed aggression and courage from a young age but they are not strong enough yet for a duo like Mantimahles. Also, take into account that they have been a bit scattered the last half year or so, now they are only with the three brothers, not 4+.
They could take Nkuhumas but it won't be easy, with Kruger male around (they could defeat him yes), and also Mantimahle males who like to venture into northern Sabi Sands.
Something like the Mbiri pride would be easier for them and I personally hope they stay in Manyeleti. It would be good genetics wise for both Mbiri pride and Nharu pride to get a takeover.
Taking over the Nharus, however, won't be an easy task, with Red Road there being very close to the pride lately - he will protect at all cost, I think - his son, who hasn't been tested yet but physically is quite a force now, and females who will protect their young offspring at a very high cost. Imo Mbiri pride would be their best bet, no cubs there currently, and would provide a good natural moment for Nzuri and his younger brother to become nomads.
All of this highly speculative of course, haven't seen an update on the three Monwana brothers in Manyeleti for a week or so, curious to know what they are up to...
Wow interesting. When exactly did monwanas show aggression and courage and what did they exactly do?
Definitely agree with u genetic wise aswell.
There is one video when the Monwana young males were still with the pride and another young male (Avoca, older than them) was eating with them on a kill, then their father Mapoza arrived (actually also the father of the Avoca male) and clashed with the Avoca, and you see the young Monwanas immediately joining their father in the fight, one even goes straight for the neck. Real aggressive.
I think this was the main experience that people labeled them as relatively aggressive and courageous. After they left the pride they also had a clash with Red Road male when they were with Nharu females (or on a kill can't remember). RR chased them away
Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
All of this is discussed on this forum, try to look for it using Google search you will find the discussions insightful I'm sure (or feel free to ask ofc). Also on youtube the footage is there of these clashes.
But we shouldn't overestimate them at this stage yet, theoretically they have the numbers and also the aggression the Kambulas lack, but they're still young, we have to see
Well, its easy to "tough boys" when theres whole pride of 10+ adults + your big daddy vs 1 lone nomadic male.
Most impressive feat was when oldest/biggest male dominated Birmingham Nephew over BBreakaway female, as Nephew is ~1 year older than him, but he is not part of those 4.
Some of them also clashed with BBreakaways, dominating unhealthy Ilanga male, before getting chased by the rest.
So it might be that these feats where mostly by or under leadership of biggest male, as these 4 who went to SS later didnt show any "fire" in them so far, as they where getting chased and separated left and right by Skybed Son, RRM, PCMs etc.
So i would definetly wait before putting some expectations on them, as you said aswell.
(03-23-2025, 11:08 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
Just because they've travelled a long way doesn't necessarily mean they were looking for territory. They're nomadic, which means they have no home, so at this stage they're just as likely looking for somewhere safe where they can avoid territorial males until they're ready to challenge for a territory, and as everyone has said they're definitely not there yet.
The Manyeleti is a pretty good place for them as there are very few territorial males in such a big area, mainly just Red Road, who doesn't pose much of a threat to them if they don't go looking for a fight. Wouldn't be surprised if they do stick around there for a while.
03-24-2025, 05:25 AM( This post was last modified: 03-24-2025, 05:26 AM by FACR2212 )
I think you should forget about the Ndzhengas becoming territorial over Nkuhuma pride. They are 10 years old this year and they will have another year between 2025-26 with at least 5 Kambula females in the process of coming into estrus, getting pregnant and giving birth to new litters. They will need 2 more years to help raising those cubs, what will make them near 13 years old. One of the Ndzhenga males can perfectly die in the process and their territory will be more a focus of attention rather than a secured territory.
For the moment, I think that Kruger male will try to stay with Nkuhumas. Being still a very confident and experienced male, his presence could be dissuasive to other coalitions of two males.
By the way, any news about Avoca/SBD males in Sabi Sands? Have they been seen again?
03-24-2025, 05:33 AM( This post was last modified: 03-24-2025, 05:34 AM by FACR2212 )
Since she’s been on heat, we’ve been keeping a close eye on the Nkuhuma female – as have the Kruger Male and Monwana male. It seems the Kruger male has taken the lead… By Field Guide Geoff
(03-23-2025, 10:12 PM)Dangeroscos Wrote: Do u think they will struggle against these coalitions even in 1y from now?
We cant know that.
Some coalitions/males become confident and can match territorial males at very early stages, some later, and some will always be "afraid" and will settle for nomadic lifestyle.
I c. Thanks for ur insight. What stage/age would u consider early? What stage/age would u consider normal/average? And what stage/age would u consider late? And what stage/age would u consider so late, that its almost certain that they settled for nomadic lifestyle for life.
(03-23-2025, 04:06 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Monwanas showed aggression and courage from a young age but they are not strong enough yet for a duo like Mantimahles. Also, take into account that they have been a bit scattered the last half year or so, now they are only with the three brothers, not 4+.
They could take Nkuhumas but it won't be easy, with Kruger male around (they could defeat him yes), and also Mantimahle males who like to venture into northern Sabi Sands.
Something like the Mbiri pride would be easier for them and I personally hope they stay in Manyeleti. It would be good genetics wise for both Mbiri pride and Nharu pride to get a takeover.
Taking over the Nharus, however, won't be an easy task, with Red Road there being very close to the pride lately - he will protect at all cost, I think - his son, who hasn't been tested yet but physically is quite a force now, and females who will protect their young offspring at a very high cost. Imo Mbiri pride would be their best bet, no cubs there currently, and would provide a good natural moment for Nzuri and his younger brother to become nomads.
All of this highly speculative of course, haven't seen an update on the three Monwana brothers in Manyeleti for a week or so, curious to know what they are up to...
Wow interesting. When exactly did monwanas show aggression and courage and what did they exactly do?
Definitely agree with u genetic wise aswell.
There is one video when the Monwana young males were still with the pride and another young male (Avoca, older than them) was eating with them on a kill, then their father Mapoza arrived (actually also the father of the Avoca male) and clashed with the Avoca, and you see the young Monwanas immediately joining their father in the fight, one even goes straight for the neck. Real aggressive.
I think this was the main experience that people labeled them as relatively aggressive and courageous. After they left the pride they also had a clash with Red Road male when they were with Nharu females (or on a kill can't remember). RR chased them away
Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
All of this is discussed on this forum, try to look for it using Google search you will find the discussions insightful I'm sure (or feel free to ask ofc). Also on youtube the footage is there of these clashes.
But we shouldn't overestimate them at this stage yet, theoretically they have the numbers and also the aggression the Kambulas lack, but they're still young, we have to see
I c thanks for the information. So confidence can be seen at this early stage by how they interact with other males right?
(03-23-2025, 04:06 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Monwanas showed aggression and courage from a young age but they are not strong enough yet for a duo like Mantimahles. Also, take into account that they have been a bit scattered the last half year or so, now they are only with the three brothers, not 4+.
They could take Nkuhumas but it won't be easy, with Kruger male around (they could defeat him yes), and also Mantimahle males who like to venture into northern Sabi Sands.
Something like the Mbiri pride would be easier for them and I personally hope they stay in Manyeleti. It would be good genetics wise for both Mbiri pride and Nharu pride to get a takeover.
Taking over the Nharus, however, won't be an easy task, with Red Road there being very close to the pride lately - he will protect at all cost, I think - his son, who hasn't been tested yet but physically is quite a force now, and females who will protect their young offspring at a very high cost. Imo Mbiri pride would be their best bet, no cubs there currently, and would provide a good natural moment for Nzuri and his younger brother to become nomads.
All of this highly speculative of course, haven't seen an update on the three Monwana brothers in Manyeleti for a week or so, curious to know what they are up to...
Wow interesting. When exactly did monwanas show aggression and courage and what did they exactly do?
Definitely agree with u genetic wise aswell.
There is one video when the Monwana young males were still with the pride and another young male (Avoca, older than them) was eating with them on a kill, then their father Mapoza arrived (actually also the father of the Avoca male) and clashed with the Avoca, and you see the young Monwanas immediately joining their father in the fight, one even goes straight for the neck. Real aggressive.
I think this was the main experience that people labeled them as relatively aggressive and courageous. After they left the pride they also had a clash with Red Road male when they were with Nharu females (or on a kill can't remember). RR chased them away
Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
All of this is discussed on this forum, try to look for it using Google search you will find the discussions insightful I'm sure (or feel free to ask ofc). Also on youtube the footage is there of these clashes.
But we shouldn't overestimate them at this stage yet, theoretically they have the numbers and also the aggression the Kambulas lack, but they're still young, we have to see
Well, its easy to "tough boys" when theres whole pride of 10+ adults + your big daddy vs 1 lone nomadic male.
Most impressive feat was when oldest/biggest male dominated Birmingham Nephew over BBreakaway female, as Nephew is ~1 year older than him, but he is not part of those 4.
Some of them also clashed with BBreakaways, dominating unhealthy Ilanga male, before getting chased by the rest.
So it might be that these feats where mostly by or under leadership of biggest male, as these 4 who went to SS later didnt show any "fire" in them so far, as they where getting chased and separated left and right by Skybed Son, RRM, PCMs etc.
So i would definetly wait before putting some expectations on them, as you said aswell.
Interesting I c. Where is the eldest monwana? Is it usually the case that the oldest of a coalition is the most aggressive and confident? (I mean towards other males and the drive to conquer or defend a territory/females)
What is in ur opinion the reason for the kambulas lack of balls? Just random probability of some lions having smaller balls than others? Or just random probability that they have less drive than others?(same way some humans have more drive to be successful than others) or are there other factors at play?
(03-23-2025, 11:08 PM)MrLoesoe Wrote: Then also the fact that they migrated all the way south from Timbavati into Sabi Sands, for young males to really go on a search for territory, I think that also helped building their image
Just because they've travelled a long way doesn't necessarily mean they were looking for territory. They're nomadic, which means they have no home, so at this stage they're just as likely looking for somewhere safe where they can avoid territorial males until they're ready to challenge for a territory, and as everyone has said they're definitely not there yet.
The Manyeleti is a pretty good place for them as there are very few territorial males in such a big area, mainly just Red Road, who doesn't pose much of a threat to them if they don't go looking for a fight. Wouldn't be surprised if they do stick around there for a while.
Yh this area really seems perfect for them. I heard though that male lions will venture further and further away, the more confidence they gain. And at the beginning of their nomadic journey, they will stay close to their natal pride area. Wouldn’t this mean that the farther away a nomadic from his natal pride area = the more confidence he has?
(03-24-2025, 05:25 AM)FACR2212 Wrote: I think you should forget about the Ndzhengas becoming territorial over Nkuhuma pride. They are 10 years old this year and they will have another year between 2025-26 with at least 5 Kambula females in the process of coming into estrus, getting pregnant and giving birth to new litters. They will need 2 more years to help raising those cubs, what will make them near 13 years old. One of the Ndzhenga males can perfectly die in the process and their territory will be more a focus of attention rather than a secured territory.
For the moment, I think that Kruger male will try to stay with Nkuhumas. Being still a very confident and experienced male, his presence could be dissuasive to other coalitions of two males.
By the way, any news about Avoca/SBD males in Sabi Sands? Have they been seen again?
I c. Really interesting if he really manages to hold the pride down. Do u think he will manage to raise offspring to independence with them? What makes him confident in ur eyes? Has he been king before? And how old exactly is he?
03-24-2025, 07:42 AM( This post was last modified: 03-24-2025, 07:50 AM by FACR2212 )
(03-24-2025, 06:57 AM)Dangeroscos Wrote:
(03-24-2025, 05:25 AM)FACR2212 Wrote: I think you should forget about the Ndzhengas becoming territorial over Nkuhuma pride. They are 10 years old this year and they will have another year between 2025-26 with at least 5 Kambula females in the process of coming into estrus, getting pregnant and giving birth to new litters. They will need 2 more years to help raising those cubs, what will make them near 13 years old. One of the Ndzhenga males can perfectly die in the process and their territory will be more a focus of attention rather than a secured territory.
For the moment, I think that Kruger male will try to stay with Nkuhumas. Being still a very confident and experienced male, his presence could be dissuasive to other coalitions of two males.
By the way, any news about Avoca/SBD males in Sabi Sands? Have they been seen again?
I c. Really interesting if he really manages to hold the pride down. Do u think he will manage to raise offspring to independence with them? What makes him confident in ur eyes? Has he been king before? And how old exactly is he?
Thanks in advance for reply
Hello! Kruger male was dominant over Torchwood pride a few years ago (a large pride further east of Sabi Sands), along with another male of unknown origin (thats why they gained the generic name of "kruger males"), siring many cubs. His partner dissapeared or was killed (I dont remember exactly) around the time of the takeover by 2 Mantimahle sons, dark mane and ginger mane Mantimahles, who have been seen with Nkuhuma females too.
After that, Kruger male roamed Sabi Sands paired with southern avoca male, another old nomadic male who lost his partner. Southern avoca male has not be seen the last months and Kruger male appeared alone with Nkuhuma pride in the last week.
P. S. You can go back to page 1178 to read more about Kruger male and Torchwood pride.
