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Lions of Sabi Sands
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 (Today, 05:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: The thing with the Othawa Breakaway female being a Ximhungwe is... Why isn't Ximhungwe an Othawa Breakaway instead?Indeed. (Today, 05:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Anyway they did name the current Sand River Pride as the SRP despite them having nothing to do with the OG Sand River Pride killed off by humans in 2007 and 2009.At that time noone really care about how to properly name lion groups, just each lodge was naming lions groups however they want. (Today, 05:21 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Potato Well, technically speaking, by your logic, in fact, it'd make way more sense for the Ntsevu pride to be called Sparta pride than the possible Ximhungwe pride without the Ximhungwe blood. Maybe it makes more sense in case of Ntsevu-Sparta than Othawa-Ximhungwe, but still giving that pride new name or calling it breakaway in such case makes much more sense insteed of reaching to so far distanse ancestry. (Today, 07:23 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Ximhungwe was a lone nomad without a territory or pride when they joined up.100% agree. 
To be completely honest, I think these bloodline talks are completely unnecessary, if, a big if, the current Ximhungwe lioness was to die leaving behind no cubs, then we can take it from there depending on how Sabi Sands itself responds. Even if she was to have cubs, ppl will still say 'well these two older female offspring still aren't Ximhungwes by blood.' If we was to track all these prides back, I guarantee we would have similar scenarios where a lone female has joined a pride and went onto help rebuild the pride, but it's never mentioned as much either because it wasn't documented or as it's simply easier to see them as full pride members from that moment onwards. We do the same with coalition members when there's atleast one member that isn't related to the rest, we say this young male / female was sired by 'said coalition' rarely ever by 'said male' unless the looks are resounding or ppl just want to credit their favourite coalition member with leaving behind a bigger legacy.
I'm not saying let's completely forget their origins at all, just saying it's time to put this thing to bed about them not being seen as permanent members of the Ximhungwe Pride, or the pride even still existing in the first place. 
I agree with you, discussions of pedigree often become redundant, especially if the female or male has already proven their value to the pride. It is important to see them as full members
Pictures of various lions from Londolozi's 'The Week In Pictures #680'. All photo credits to Sean Zeederberg.
https://blog.londolozi.com/2024/12/20/th...tures-680/ Tsalala lioness and 'bigger' PC male. 10th December.  *This image is copyright of its original author The Tsalala Female and the larger of the two Plains Camp Males have been hanging around together for quite some time since she returned to Londolozi. Here they spot a herd of wildebeest in the distance while upon the scenic Ximpalapala crest. Tsalala lioness. 11th December.  *This image is copyright of its original author K12. Kambula/Ntsevu Breakaway Lioness. 4th and 14th of December respectively.  *This image is copyright of its original author Moving through the territory of the Ndzhenga Males and the Kambula Pride, this Ntsevu Breakaway Female was treading on treacherous ground.  *This image is copyright of its original author Styx young male. 4th and 14th of December respectively.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author The Styx male is often found in the company of the Ntsevu Breakaway Female, the two of them had brought down a buffalo cow and its tiny newborn calf on this particular morning and were resting after a period of feeding. Members of the Kambula pride. 18th December.  *This image is copyright of its original author
I made a response post, before reading the rest of the thread, which I don't normally do. I suppose that is my lesson for the day. However, I do believe the conversation about the Xims/Gingerella situation, should be put to rest now, so I will remove my comment, and we can all move on.
I do wish to add, the conversation has created a general question in my mind, as perhaps I have been mistaken all of this time. If a lion, or a pride, were to remain in a relatively small area, similar to the size of WS, which is relatively small, for literal years, is that lion not considered territorial? 
Nkuhuma Male 2016 and Talamati Male still in the West
 *This image is copyright of its original author Credits to Haley Tenenbaum Instagram Story https://www.instagram.com/stories/haley.tenenbaum/3526621802862125801/ 
I think the size of a territory largely depends on how well the area satisfies the needs of a pride. With the exact boundaries shifting depending on the annual shifts in the movements of prey, the increased needs for food as cubs age, the need for den sites or avoiding predators and rivals.
If a small area satisfy these needs. A territory doesnt need to be as big. But the pride will defend it all the same. Just like a pride with a larger territory would. However it is a very vulnerable position to be in. With lions that close to eachother the chance of running into eachother is high and such a pride can be easily pushed into semi nomadhood. Even after years of peace and successfully holding the area. Which is probably what we see in western sector a lot. So I would say that they are territorial if they behave as such, though very fragile.. Currently most of the smaller groups right now already were pushed into nomadhood by either the Ximhungwes or the Mangheni. 
The classical definition of a territorial lion is one that owns a territory, one that is able to push other lions off their territory
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