There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: becoming brave enough to attack prides outside his roaming area this fast is pretty much nhil.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, but, this is a little anthropomorphic, no? For starters, I do not believe any wild creature lacks for bravery or courage, however those are human traits, for wild creatures there is only survival, period, and surviving in the wild is not for the feint of heart. Secondly, we have been following the Tumbelas, for years, and the only time we have witnessed them being fearful was before their taking over the Othawa Pride, and at that point they had lost a brother during their nomadic travels, and everything in the bush wanted to kill the rest of them. 99% of all male lions are fearful and skittish during this stage of their lives, only one that wasn't, that I recall was, strangely enough, Othawa Male, and that is only because he didn't really have a nomadic stage, he walked away from the Othawa Pride, and ran straight into the Manghenis.
All three of the remaining Tumbelas never demonstrated any aggression towards other lions, even towards a 15 year old male, from who they intended on taking his pride. We have only seen defensive postures when attacked, or the typical showing of dominance towards one another that comes with being in a coalition. Skorro Jr has been on his own, for a few years now, living with lasting injuries that obviously hamper his ability to hunt, at times, an old lion, like he is, does not accomplish that if he lacks what we might view as courage, or lives in fear. If that fact alone, is not enough to show anyone that he doesn't lack for "bravery", then I don't know what else to say to those people.
Using terms such as "brave enough" can only be viewed as meant to imply the opposite, as in lacking in "bravery" or "courage", or perhaps having "cowardice". None of these terms have a place in any discussion about any wild creature. People have said the same sort of things about Nkuhuma Male, and in those instances those words were equally misplaced.
A perfect example might be what literally just happened involving Kruger Male. He stood his ground, in the face of an obviously stronger force, until it became clear that to remain would have ended very badly for him. Was the fact that he ran away, while literally being surrounded, a sign that he wasn't brave enough? Absolutely not, in fact I believe it was a perfect example of the intelligence that he possesses, an intelligence that has allowed him to survive for all of these years as a lone male, and that allows him, at this advanced age, to still have the drive to become territorial and dominant yet again. Will it happen? I don't know, but for as smart as he clearly is, I would not bet against him, that much is for sure.
I am not denying that he can do it. We know he is confident enough to hunt big game and approach prides.
I just find it very hard to believe it happened considering the timeframe. Which would imply that in just a few days he joined another lion and got accustomed with him to the point of becoming uncharacteristically aggressive to prides. Which is just to fast for him to be a believable suspect.
(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: becoming brave enough to attack prides outside his roaming area this fast is pretty much nhil.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, but, this is a little anthropomorphic, no? For starters, I do not believe any wild creature lacks for bravery or courage, however those are human traits, for wild creatures there is only survival, period, and surviving in the wild is not for the feint of heart. Secondly, we have been following the Tumbelas, for years, and the only time we have witnessed them being fearful was before their taking over the Othawa Pride, and at that point they had lost a brother during their nomadic travels, and everything in the bush wanted to kill the rest of them. 99% of all male lions are fearful and skittish during this stage of their lives, only one that wasn't, that I recall was, strangely enough, Othawa Male, and that is only because he didn't really have a nomadic stage, he walked away from the Othawa Pride, and ran straight into the Manghenis.
All three of the remaining Tumbelas never demonstrated any aggression towards other lions, even towards a 15 year old male, from who they intended on taking his pride. We have only seen defensive postures when attacked, or the typical showing of dominance towards one another that comes with being in a coalition. Skorro Jr has been on his own, for a few years now, living with lasting injuries that obviously hamper his ability to hunt, at times, an old lion, like he is, does not accomplish that if he lacks what we might view as courage, or lives in fear. If that fact alone, is not enough to show anyone that he doesn't lack for "bravery", then I don't know what else to say to those people.
Using terms such as "brave enough" can only be viewed as meant to imply the opposite, as in lacking in "bravery" or "courage", or perhaps having "cowardice". None of these terms have a place in any discussion about any wild creature. People have said the same sort of things about Nkuhuma Male, and in those instances those words were equally misplaced.
A perfect example might be what literally just happened involving Kruger Male. He stood his ground, in the face of an obviously stronger force, until it became clear that to remain would have ended very badly for him. Was the fact that he ran away, while literally being surrounded, a sign that he wasn't brave enough? Absolutely not, in fact I believe it was a perfect example of the intelligence that he possesses, an intelligence that has allowed him to survive for all of these years as a lone male, and that allows him, at this advanced age, to still have the drive to become territorial and dominant yet again. Will it happen? I don't know, but for as smart as he clearly is, I would not bet against him, that much is for sure.
I am not denying that he can do it. We know he is confident enough to hunt big game and approach prides.
I just find it very hard to believe it happened considering the timeframe. Which would imply that in just a few days he joined another lion and got accustomed with him to the point of becoming uncharacteristically aggressive to prides. Which is just to fast for him to be a believable suspect.
On that, I am in total agreement with you. Let's just say, as an individual male lion, such behavior would be out of character for him, from what we understand his character to be, at this point. He has certainly partnered up with other males who have such histories, so anything is possible, but in his case, and for all he has shown us over several years now, I'd want to see some proof.
Today, 01:33 AM( This post was last modified: Today, 01:40 AM by KM600 )
(Today, 01:21 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: So... one more thought that maybe we didn't consider. Ridge Nose's 2 subs....
I doubt it was them, the only way they’re killing a cub at their young age is if they come across one that’s so far lost and helpless. They were also chased off by Tsalala lioness by herself a few weeks ago from one of her kills.
(Yesterday, 05:37 PM)KM600 Wrote: Kruger male definitely still has it in him to be dominant, it’s just him needing a partner who will stick with him.
Cedric said stuff would happen at this elephant carcass. Didn't take long for the drama to unfold.
The BD male is defnitely lucky the Kambula males went after the Kruger male and not him, but not surprising seeing as he was the male that challenged them.
(Today, 01:24 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: More on the Kambula Kruger Male situation today. These boys are starting to get a bit nasty.
I wouldn't call it nasty. Just what lions do to rivals when they catch them. Males and females. If they're going to take and hold a territory they're going to have to do a lot worse.
(Yesterday, 10:59 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I am not that worried about the Avoca. It seems the fight was witnessed so if he was killed or seriously injured it would probably have been reported. Nor does the PCmales seem to have serious wounds on them in their recent sighting with the Ximhungwes. Though while a Nhenha scenario cannot be ruled out, it’s far more likely he was only separated and keeping his head low to avoid another beating.
I agree with this, ofc they could have caught the S.Avoca again after the chase and that wasn’t witnessed but I really doubt it. In the latest sighting with Nkuhumas, Kruger Male wasn’t showing any signs of ‘skittish behaviour’ or anything, whereas he prolly would if he was involved in such a serious fight.
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(Today, 01:21 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: So... one more thought that maybe we didn't consider. Ridge Nose's 2 subs....
It was 100% not them, the only way they’re killing a cub at their young age is if they come across one that’s so far lost and helpless. They were also chased off by Tsalala lioness by herself a few weeks ago from one of her kills.
I would never say 100% the way things go down in the wild, but seems very unlikely.
It could also have just been a leopard. I think I remember reading somewhere that the greatest proportion of lion cub mortalities are by male leopards. That's how the Tsalala lioness lost her siblings. The PC males chasing two males could have been unrelated. We'll have to wait for more information.
(Today, 01:21 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: So... one more thought that maybe we didn't consider. Ridge Nose's 2 subs....
It was 100% not them, the only way they’re killing a cub at their young age is if they come across one that’s so far lost and helpless. They were also chased off by Tsalala lioness by herself a few weeks ago from one of her kills.
I would never say 100% the way things go down in the wild, but seems very unlikely.
As soon as I sent the message I changed it cos it didn’t sound right to me either.
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Today, 01:49 AM( This post was last modified: Today, 01:50 AM by KM600 )
By the way, it would have been interesting to see what would happen if only K4 or K6 were there, we know these boys have no problem chasing off lone males but we’ve never seen them 1 against 1, or outnumbered and winning that altercation. The Kruger Male was definitely feeling himself just before that video started, u could tell he was thinking about chasing them but ultimately knew it wasn’t worth the risk.
(Today, 01:24 AM)T_Ferguson Wrote: More on the Kambula Kruger Male situation today. These boys are starting to get a bit nasty.
I wouldn't call it nasty. Just what lions do to rivals when they catch them. Males and females. If they're going to take and hold a territory they're going to have to do a lot worse.
I was more meaning from the standpoint that for the longest time they took all the beatings and didn't know what they were supposed to be doing. They seem to be catching on now.
(Today, 01:49 AM)KM600 Wrote: By the way, it would have been interesting to see what would happen if only K4 or K6 were there, we know these boys have no problem chasing off lone males but we’ve never seen them 1 against 1, or outnumbered and winning that altercation. The Kruger Male was definitely feeling himself just before that video started, u could tell he was thinking about chasing them but ultimately knew it wasn’t worth the risk.
I would also like to see one of these boys in a 1 on 1 encounter. Like just K4 and the Kruger male. It's all well and good if you always outnumber the other males, but they need to be capable of standing on their own as well.
(Yesterday, 07:42 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Apparently they were attacked by some males, though luckily the PCmales intervened or it could have been a lot worse. Sadly the missing cub seems to be female.
This isn’t true. PCMs were not involved or in the area when it happened. And it’s not even sure it was ‘males’. Or necessarily ’lions’
Too much bad speculation is out there.
Nkuhuma breakaways were seen in the area and are suspects. But the event was NOT witnessed to say it was them.
