There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
I think if you go back far enough. All the prides form pretty much just one big bush anyway. With some roots running into neighbouring reserves when new males arrive.
(10-21-2023, 02:35 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think if you go back far enough. All the prides form pretty much just one big bush anyway. With some roots running into neighbouring reserves when new males arrive.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
Thats almost 20 nomadic males of min 4 yrs of age, who are ready or almost ready to be challengers, hanging in Sabi Sands alone.
Local territorial males will have their hands full protecting their territory.
Plus Skorro YM and u still have quite a few youngsters like Floppy Ear or Nkuhuma breakaway youngster that will be pushed out soon, there’s atleast one more Sand River Pride male either in SS or KNP and I believe he’s a bit older. These lone males need to grow up quick as possible and get some numbers on their side because SS is looking to be packed. Majority of these males come from the North aswell and even if they were to takeover at some point, there’s not enough prides to support all these males especially with the Talamatis South. I think if it stays so competitive we’re bound to see quite a few breakaways with females that are looking to mate with other males with their pride being dominated by their father(s) or females that mate with any many lions as possible to secure their cub’s future.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
This is something I could get behind but what happens when u get a coalition that contains males that aren’t related to each other who end up siring offspring and it’s impossible to tell which males sired which litter.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
This is something I could get behind but what happens when u get a coalition that contains males that aren’t related to each other who end up siring offspring and it’s impossible to tell which males sired which litter.
Sometimes you can tell but it’s impossible to know 100%
Its probably not possible to make a conventional family tree without genetic testing. Animals just sleep to much around for that.
But perhaps some graph that outlines which coalitions took over which prides over time and fathered which coalitions, which groups merged together or split apart and which groups entered or left the reserve should be possible.
(10-21-2023, 09:47 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Its probably not possible to make a conventional family tree without genetic testing. Animals just sleep to much around for that.
But perhaps some graph that outlines which coalitions took over which prides over time and fathered which coalitions, which groups merged together or split apart and which groups entered or left the reserve should be possible.
Othawa nkuhuma kambula mhangeni southern ximhungwe nkuhuma breakaway talamati breakawy tsalala should be easy but maybe Styx and talamati would be the hardest maybe
10-21-2023, 11:41 PM( This post was last modified: 10-21-2023, 11:43 PM by BA0701 )
(10-21-2023, 08:09 PM)KM600 Wrote:
(10-21-2023, 07:30 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
This is something I could get behind but what happens when u get a coalition that contains males that aren’t related to each other who end up siring offspring and it’s impossible to tell which males sired which litter.
Right, but that is why it is more to keep track of sons from particular coalitions, and not so much from particular males. Unless, of course, we are discussing a solo male who has been successful in seeing his sons to adulthood. The Tintswalo Males would be a good example of what you are talking about. If we get to the point that we need a thread for their lineage, then it would be for the coalition and not specific males. But, so far the threads have more dealt with coalitions. We often get a lot of questions on who is a particular male's father, grandfather, etc..., this is to aid in those discussions. It is obviously not for scientific genealogy record keeping purposes, discussions along those lines would require proper DNA testing and record keeping, closest studies to that level would be like the one performed on the crater lions, and they have the capability to trace the genealogy of many of those cats all the way back to the original lions in the area.
(10-21-2023, 12:26 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Personally I never saw the point of those anyway.
I mean, why is it the Avoca lineage and not the lineage of whoever fathered the Avocas? And if some of those sons become a coalition of note, will they have their own lineage thread or will they all be lumped in the Avoca one?
I think it makes more sense to just name them X pride male offspring or X coalition male offspring. Until they become noteworthy enough to warant their own thread. With perhaps a family tree thread for those that want to keep up with how the prides genetically intermingle with eachother over the years. Having a clear organisation of where information can be found is probably more important than keeping the amount of threads below X.
Still, such a thread may be usefull now for the Avocas as several of their sons have completely broken ties with their native prive.
The reason for the Lineage threads was to be able to keep track of grandsons, great-grandsons, etc... without constantly making new threads for each coalition or solo male who might only be successful for a short period of time, and to begin a single point with which to be able to trace back the lineage of certain males. Obviously, all lions lineage can be traced back for millennia, but we started with more recently known and well documented males as a starting point. When I asked for everyone's opinions on creating them, I don't recall getting any negative feedback from anyone. We have pride threads, for keeping track of the females and young males, but there was no real way to maintain familial history for males.
This is something I could get behind but what happens when u get a coalition that contains males that aren’t related to each other who end up siring offspring and it’s impossible to tell which males sired which litter.
Right, but that is why it is more to keep track of sons from particular coalitions, and not so much from particular males. Unless, of course, we are discussing a solo male who has been successful in seeing his sons to adulthood. The Tintswalo Males would be a good example of what you are talking about. If we get to the point that we need a thread for their lineage, then it would be for the coalition and not specific males. But, so far the threads have more dealt with coalitions. We often get a lot of questions on who is a particular male's father, grandfather, etc..., this is to aid in those discussions. It is obviously not for scientific genealogy record keeping purposes, discussions along those lines would require proper DNA testing and record keeping, closest studies to that level would be like the one performed on the crater lions, and they have the capability to trace the genealogy of many of those cats all the way back to the original lions in the area.
So instead of a tumbela thread it should’ve been a Thanda impi sons lineage
