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Lions of Sabi Sands
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Was just thinking about coalition sizes and I fully believe 4 is the best size number for the average coalition, perfect number where it’s big enough but doesn’t normally warrant a full split like u see with coalitions of 5/6/7 etc members. Interesting that the two possible biggest coalitions in the near future being Mohawk/Nkuhuma Boys and Kambula young males are so close to each other, disregarded Nkhulus as it’s hard to tell whether they’re gonna settle in SS or stay in KNP. Feel like the bond would be much better compared to other coalitions aswell, we all know how rare it is to see every member of the bigger coalitions together at the same time.
 (09-15-2023, 12:25 AM)KM600 Wrote: Was just thinking about coalition sizes and I fully believe 4 is the best size number for the average coalition, perfect number where it’s big enough but doesn’t normally warrant a full split like u see with coalitions of 5/6/7 etc members. Interesting that the two possible biggest coalitions in the near future being Mohawk/Nkuhuma Boys and Kambula young males are so close to each other, disregarded Nkhulus as it’s hard to tell whether they’re gonna settle in SS or stay in KNP. Feel like the bond would be much better compared to other coalitions aswell, we all know how rare it is to see every member of the bigger coalitions together at the same time. I think 3-4 is the perfect size. Larger allows for coalitions to barrel in like a train, but they can't stay together, as you mentioned, someone will always get unhappy with their share of the spoils. I think 3-4 allows for them to bond, as you said, but still feel in coalitions of this size there is still, typically, an odd man out. Nwas are a perfect example of this, Ubuso was never as close to the other three as they were with each other. In that regard, 3 might be the perfect size, as I think the cohesiveness of the group is one of the most important factor. Nhenha and Nkuhuma, they didn't have the time to bond like the PC boys have (literally from birth), so even if all other things were entirely equal, I would still believe the odds are in the tighter group's favor. Mr. T and KT shared such a bond, in fact PC boys remind me of them in some ways, and who can ever forget the bond S Avocas had, I literally don't think I ever saw pics or vids of those two and they were not right beside one another, if they weren't in the same pic it was commented that the other was near by. 
Coalition numbers depend on a lot of factors. Obviously for the safety of the members involved, the bigger the better. But for the stability of the region and prides, a big coalition means trouble...
Still if I had to pick an overall number I'd say 3. Not big enough to be leaving pride after pride without properly raising cubs, and not small enough that it's likely a bigger one will show up and easily oust them. 
There are advantages and disadvantages of bigger coalitions(5-7). They initialy disrupt the dynamics within an area that might contain upto 6 or so prides which is then followed by atleast 3 years of complete stability. This can be good for prides that are struggling to exist/grow due to high competition between smaller coalitions. There's a reason we see Mapogo/Majingalane/Matimba bloodlines in almost every major pride within Sabi Sands.
Numbers are always an advantage for a coalition I think, it gives you power and protection when you're young and inexperienced. A coalition splitting isn't a bad thing, the perfect way is to start out as a big coalition of 6-7. You might lose a few members by the time you have been dominant for a few years so that splitting situation never arises. If all 6 or 7 do happen to be alive by the 2nd or 3rd year, splitting isn't a bad thing at all at that point. With bigger coalitions it's the first few years where you can really make a difference, smaller coalitions just don't have that luxury and have to do the heavy lifting early on with very little reward. (09-15-2023, 01:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote: someone will always get unhappy with their share of the spoils I disagree with this pov. I don't think this is ever the reason for a split. As a lion you'll always have to fight for your part of the kill, that's just part of life. There's no such thing as being 'unhappy' about it, the bigger the coalition the more they will have to hunt. Anything they catch will be gone within minutes and all of them would be equally motivated to make a second kill moments later. The only time I see this being an issue is when a member is sick or injured and isn't in a condition to fight for his share at the dinner table. 
Adding to this why did nhenha leave tinyo and nsuku to mate with the tsalala female? He did come back but still… and how long did it take the 5 remaining matimbas to split after nduna disappeared
(09-15-2023, 07:47 AM)sik94 Wrote:(09-15-2023, 01:55 AM)BA0701 Wrote: someone will always get unhappy with their share of the spoils Legit question, not an argument or debate, as unfortunately we will never really know which of us is right, I am just looking for clarification. If I am understanding you correctly, you don't believe a lion can feel happiness/unhappiness, but you do think that they are capable of consciously thinking far enough in advance to understand that due to numbers they will have to hunt more often, that they are able to understand that more mouths will require more hunts? I'm not saying you're wrong, as I believe these animals are far more intelligent than many of us would think, and I agree partially, it may be due to one cat being dominated at kills regularly, resulting in less to eat, but that being the case it comes back to my original comment about happiness. One can certainly not be happy when one is being bashed about at every meal. Happy is not meant in the literal sense, though I believe they are capable of such emotions just like our pet cats and dogs demonstrate in a daily basis, but happy in the form of their being content. I'd also say that there is a distinct difference in normal competition at a kill, and being dominated at one, the way that Mr T was dominated at the buffalo kill, and made to stay several yards back, is very different from getting a smack when trying to take a bite. (09-15-2023, 10:06 AM)BA0701 Wrote: they are capable of consciously thinking far enough in advance to understand that due to numbers they will have to hunt more often, that they are able to understand that more mouths will require more hunts? Obviously not. That's just my understanding of what happens when you have a big coalition on the same kill, they aren't even aware of this kind of a deduction. I don't think they feel unhappy or happy in an emotional sense like a human. (09-15-2023, 10:23 AM)sik94 Wrote:(09-15-2023, 10:06 AM)BA0701 Wrote: they are capable of consciously thinking far enough in advance to understand that due to numbers they will have to hunt more often, that they are able to understand that more mouths will require more hunts? Perfect, the statement as I read it seemed strange, which is why I asked. To be honest, my friend, I do not think we are that far off from what we both believe. As I tried to clarify myself, I was not referring to happiness as in the happiness we feel when we are with family and friends (or the happiness we all feel when we visit WildFact  ), just more being content with a given situation or the status quo. Though I do believe that all animals are capable of feeling some semblance of that emotion, just not in the context we are discussing. Cheers Sik
In a large coalition, food is just always going to be an issue. They both may hunt together the first time. But the strong will eat fist. And as there is so little food available for such a large group. We are not going to just see scraps over who gets to eat first. But scraps about who gets to eat at all and these can be very brutal with survival on the line.
And once they had their fill, the stronger members are in a food coma. Its only going to be the weaker members that are forced to go on a hunt a second time to get their fill. After a while, this weaker subgroup is going to realize that they can get much better rewards if they just hunt on their own in the first place and there is very little benefit for them to stick around. There is no loyalty keeping a group together when the bottom half is severely disadvantaged like that. There is no point in seeking safety in numbers, when your own group becomes a bigger threat to your survival than the outside world. Its also important to note that coalitions collapse in zoos and such as well. So sometimes it may also just be the social structure in the group itself that degrades over time. Rather than something to fight over. And yes, animals are just as emotional as humans are. Emotions are nothing more than expressions of our deeper instincts. Not some dumb party trick we evolved for artists like Shakespeare to write sappy plays about. Getting food and sex gives us a instinctual happy feeling so we get some more. Being beaten up or seeing our kids die gives us a instinctual bad feeling. So we try to avoid that. Thats all there is to it. Granted, a lion may have different emotions as they live vastly different lives. They lack for example the human instinctual disgust towards cheating as their society is build around the instinct of multiple lionesses taking care of the same males cubs with the whole pride and allolactating. And they clearly form a stronger bond between members of the own sex rather than opposites one like we do. But basic emotions, like happiness and grief are essential for an instinctual driven animal to function. Otherwise an animal would be indifferent to its own suffering and not take any steps towards survival.  (09-15-2023, 10:06 AM)BA0701 Wrote: Legit question, not an argument or debate, as unfortunately we will never really know which of us is right, I am just looking for clarification. If I am understanding you correctly, you don't believe a lion can feel happiness/unhappiness, but you do think that they are capable of consciously thinking far enough in advance to understand that due to numbers they will have to hunt more often, that they are able to understand that more mouths will require more hunts? I was just have a small, tiny discussion, just a few short posts on social media, about this very thing. I don't believe lions feel depressed, shame, guilt and if so it ertainly is very different than how man experiences these feelings. Then someone commented saying all aanimals are sentinent beings. That may be so but I don't believe felines/lions experience the same feelings as man. This was brought up on a post about Halftail having bad luck and always loosing his partner or pride, etc.... (09-15-2023, 07:47 AM)sik94 Wrote: There are advantages and disadvantages of bigger coalitions(5-7). They initialy disrupt the dynamics within an area that might contain upto 6 or so prides which is then followed by atleast 3 years of complete stability. This can be good for prides that are struggling to exist/grow due to high competition between smaller coalitions. There's a reason we see Mapogo/Majingalane/Matimba bloodlines in almost every major pride within Sabi Sands. Interesting take but I think splitting has its advantages for sure but it’s also based off what type of split - are the two coalitions controlling adjacent prides or do they separate for good with no contact between each other and if they do come into the same presence it’s as rivals. I do agree that 6/7 is a very nice number as it gives the coalition a cushion for losses and still allows them to be a powerful force but it can also be a burden. Remember watching a documentary about sub-adults who had been kicked out of a pride albeit they were twice the size of the numbers we’ve mentioned (12 strong), anyways the breakaway was made up of mostly males and a few of their sisters but due to their extreme size, they couldn’t hunt enough food for themselves never mind the whole breakaway, by the end of it I can’t remember if they all died or if 2/3 barely survived. I’d also argue 3/4 better prepares the coalition for the future, obviously they’re not as powerful but it exposes the reality to them that a sense of fear is necessary to survive, look at most coalitions ranging from 6/7 members and I guarantee there’s atleast one or more members that have died purely because of the fact they believed they had nothing to fear, they’ve charged an intruding coalition by themselves or they’ve went exploring for females belonging to other prides and haven’t returned. The smaller coalitions learn how to use their numbers wisely.   (09-15-2023, 09:28 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote: Adding to this why did nhenha leave tinyo and nsuku to mate with the tsalala female? He did come back but still… and how long did it take the 5 remaining matimbas to split after nduna disappearedNdhuna disappeared in approx Nov-Dec of 2012. Towards the end of 2013, the Matimba coalition decided to split up, and they later were known as the 3 Northern Matimbas and the 2 Southern Matimbas. So around one year for them to separate. Many thanks to @criollo2mil for the date of when Ndhuna disappeared.  |
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