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Lions of Sabi Sands
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 (09-13-2023, 03:12 AM)Tonpa Wrote: BDM's. Post mentions Chela has a cub or cubs. Congratulations to the new fathers (if it's true). Hopefully the cubs will make it, the pride's not particularly stable at the moment. It would be good if the (now fully-matured) Avoca daughters could come into oestrus soon and accept the BDMs, so that Chela isn't on her own like Ridge Nose. And that way the BDMs will be more likely to stick around. 
Short term thinking it allows more genes to spread in SS and better the lion dynamics to a certain point, but where do this breakaway pride get their territory from, assuming they only start a pride with Chela and the Avoca daughters. Unless they plan on ousting either S8 and the Talamati breakaways or Mohawks, his sons and core Nkuhuma Pride, the only other adjacent territory is controlled by the Talamati Pride who are currently South. Unless the Talamatis stay South and give up their territory, the new Nkuhuma breakaways with the BDMs would essentially be pushing out a whole pride in order to control their own territory.
I hope S8 isn't ousted anytime soon. There's only one adult and one subadult female in that pride, the female will need at least this subadult to make it and help her rebuild the pride once S8 is ousted.
And at the subs age they won't have a good chance if their father is dethroned.  (09-13-2023, 05:17 AM)Mapokser Wrote: I hope S8 isn't ousted anytime soon. There's only one adult and one subadult female in that pride, the female will need at least this subadult to make it and help her rebuild the pride once S8 is ousted. My thoughts exactly, and same goes for RRM, Nharu Pride has a lot of cubs and subs to see through to adulthood. As you already pointed out in a previous comment, Sabi Sands never recovered from the losses during the Mapogo period, less than half I think you said. Well, given that, I think it is imperative that cubs be allowed to reach adulthood, there is just too much turn over of Pride Males. Othawa Male's cubs a perfect example of this, not a single one made it, and now the Mangheni are starting from scratch once again, with a group of aging females. To qualify my comment further, I don't know that the turn over of pride males occurs more today than it did then, but what does seem clear is that there was tremendous loss of lions during that period, and when they continue to reproduce at the same rate, with the same pride male turnover rate, with less lions overall, it would be nearly impossible to rebuild to previous levels, following such losses. As an example, I say to look to the American Buffalo, back to the mid 1800s and earlier, the American Plains were blackened by the massive herds, over hunting nearly destroyed the species. They are still not even close to where they were, but the recovery that has been accomplished was the result of human intervention.   *This image is copyright of its original author Scars! They are a testament to the bravery of any lion, and a record that tells the story of a life that was never and will never be easy. Here’s a recently captured video of the formidable lion, S8/Imbali male, bearing big scars on his face after his latest battle with the Red Road male. " target="_blank" class="post_link">  (09-13-2023, 03:52 AM)KM600 Wrote: Short term thinking it allows more genes to spread in SS and better the lion dynamics to a certain point, but where do this breakaway pride get their territory from, assuming they only start a pride with Chela and the Avoca daughters. Unless they plan on ousting either S8 and the Talamati breakaways or Mohawks, his sons and core Nkuhuma Pride, the only other adjacent territory is controlled by the Talamati Pride who are currently South. Unless the Talamatis stay South and give up their territory, the new Nkuhuma breakaways with the BDMs would essentially be pushing out a whole pride in order to control their own territory. Here we go again. Surely Chela (and the Avoca daughters, if they stay with her) would be the core pride, and the Birmingham daughters the breakaways. This is how it happens. The BDMs are here, and here to stay. They have now fathered cubs with Chela. A split is almost inevitable, as we can't know when the BBoy daughters will come back into oestrus. Mohawk and his sons have been ousted. And they need to move off anyway, the sons are too closely related to all the females in the area. The BBoy daughters already ventured to the Western Sector since the arrival of the BDMs, they'll find somewhere else. If they do split permanently that is. And the Talamatis in the north are only one lioness and five sub adults. There's plenty of room in Djuma, Buffelshoek, Nkorho, Elephant Plains, Arathusa, northern Londolozi and Mala Mala for three small prides. (09-13-2023, 07:00 PM)NLAL11 Wrote:(09-13-2023, 03:52 AM)KM600 Wrote: Short term thinking it allows more genes to spread in SS and better the lion dynamics to a certain point, but where do this breakaway pride get their territory from, assuming they only start a pride with Chela and the Avoca daughters. Unless they plan on ousting either S8 and the Talamati breakaways or Mohawks, his sons and core Nkuhuma Pride, the only other adjacent territory is controlled by the Talamati Pride who are currently South. Unless the Talamatis stay South and give up their territory, the new Nkuhuma breakaways with the BDMs would essentially be pushing out a whole pride in order to control their own territory. Think you’re definition of ‘ousted’ is different to mine, Mohawk since the BDMs arrival isn’t a territorial male anymore that’s established but he’s still a pride male, it’s not like he’s been forced to completely leave the area he use to rule. The BDMs have occasionally chased him out his territory such as when Mohawk and his sons had to find refuge in S8 territory and they also went into Manyeleti which may have been down to them either being kicked out yet again or maybe they just followed the buffalo. The whole reason BDMs aren’t as successful as people had guessed they would be from the start is cos they can’t form a proper takeover, chasing Mohawk and his sons occasionally as well as S8 and the Talamatis does nothing for them apart from establish power we already know they possess, they need to focus on either the Nkuhuma Pride or the Talamati breakaways until their pride male is properly ousted to the point of no return. In response to Mohawks son’s needing to move off as they’re too closely related to the females, I disagree, I’m not one to say I agree with incest in lions but you’d be lying if u think they didn’t seem like a formidable coalition in the making. Cubs produced under their reign would be more likely to survive and that in itself improves the lion dynamics, ofcourse this point is pretty useless until they start showing they’re ready to be a dominant coalition but the BDMs are giving them the time they need. 
If a lion is ousted, i think it means they are actively being targeted and attacked until they leave by a coalition intending to take over. As oposed to just leaving on their own due to pressure from random wandering rivals or a seven year itch like leopards do. I dont think the Avocas were ousted do. Nobody was actively hunting them down or anything. It was more a case of better groups settling down where they live.
I dont think we should be blinded by a particular lions legacy. Genetic diversity is for a reserve far more important than somekind of super bloodlines. Besides, how many of those too lions are only regarded special due to being lucky of being born in a large group or living in a area well covered by social media. Rather than actually having valuable genes.  (09-13-2023, 07:04 PM)BA0701 Wrote:(09-13-2023, 01:51 PM)Horizon Wrote: Not sure if S8 lost its right upper eyelid? I really hope, S8 doesn't loose his eye and its functionality. (09-13-2023, 11:03 PM)afortich Wrote:(09-13-2023, 07:04 PM)BA0701 Wrote:(09-13-2023, 01:51 PM)Horizon Wrote: Not sure if S8 lost its right upper eyelid? Currently I don't believe that will happen. Scarface's eye remained intact and functional, he just was unable to blink with that eye as he had no eyelid remaining. I'm not sure S8's injury is as severe, only time will tell.  Quote:Nkuhuma male with couple of scars on his back, nice seeing this fella still kicking |
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