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Lions of Manyeleti
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  (01-19-2025, 10:47 PM)sunless Wrote: Another good video of Matthew Crookes at The Virtual Safari @Tintswalo. Not really a big fan for those type of questions, which lion is bigger, purely thru the fact it's impossible to know most of the time. I personally think Zigzag size is hugely overstated, he's a massive male for sure but some ppl make out like he's simply that much bigger than surrounding males, and I think that's largely due to Shaka being his partner. Shaka who aside from height, is nowhere near an impressive male in my opinion, never anywhere near as bulky, much smaller head and his mane definitely isn't impressive either. This obviously isn't taking his behaviour into account too. The ranger seems quite certain that Zigzag is bigger but I don't recall Zigzag ever being seen having a confrontation with RRM, I think they'd be quite similar and it's definitely too close to call without both of them next to each other. I remember a Manyeleti guide saying RRM was much bigger than DarkMane years ago. The same DM who aside from Nhenha, was comfortably the biggest lion is Sabi Sands at the time, and was comfortably bigger than brothers who weren't the biggest in height, but were massive in bulkiness in their primes, yet he was apparently nowhere near the size of RRM. If we going by that logic, Zigzag definitely being bigger than RRM who was bigger than arguably the biggest lion in Sabi Sands, who himself was said to be the same height as HB, then Zigzag should be the biggest male in KNP easily.. so ye unless these lions are spotted together, I will never take guides opinions too serious on this matter. 
@KM600
Yea we need to take those guide comments about sizes as their subjective opinions rather than like its a fact, as even if you see lions in person, its hard to compare their sizes as most of them are quite similar in size, or hardly unnoticable even when they are together. 
I never got why some people ( guides, rangers and photographers included ) have the impression Scar is much bigger than Shaka when we have countless photos and videos of them together since young age through their prime to old age, side by side, and the only difference is that Scar is a bit bulkier, with a bigger mane.
Makhunga is much bulkier when compared to his brother than Scar when compared to Shaka, but many people act like they are barely different in size while Scar is supposedly much bigger than Shaka. @KM600 Mbiris aren't in their prime anymore, they are old and even when they show up in great shape, it's not the same as before. Still, Shaka's head is the same size as his brother, and he is not, by any means, "way less bulky", he is only slightly less muscular and that's it. He was always a very impressive lion, you can literally see how he compared to prime Mapoza when he had just turned 3yo, or how he in old/not top form, compared to prime Guernsey male, and the list goes on. He was called huge even when chasing the H7 males, one which weighed 247kg without a full stomach. Red Road was around the same size as the Kambula, K5 had a much fuller stomach making him look bulkier, but still, K4 looked the most impressive of the 3 in that fight. RR also weighed 200-210kg with an empty stomach which is big but nothing extraordinary, around the same as the Mapogo ( 230kg with partial content ). By comparing what we know of weights taken, as well as these lions interacting with other males and females, I'd bet prime Shaka would look noticeably bigger than RR if they were seen together. Idk about this "same height as HB", I'd argue HB wasn't any taller than any of the "big/above average but not huge" males that we've seen in Sabi Sands, from Mapogo to Majingilane to bigger Selati and bigger Bboys, to PCM, Gijima, Kambulas... HB probably had a longer body than usual and was very bulky, but height wise, most of these lions are similar. Prime Scar, I'd bet, would compete with Makhunga as the biggest in Sabi Sands and would definitely be one of the biggest well-known/famous lions in Kruger.
Head-size comparison between the 2 Mbiris:
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Bulkiness:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Now, Shaka with other males. December 2016 ( Mbiris were born in Dec 2013 so Shaka had just turned 3yo ), here him with 1/2 prime Mapoza:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Old Mbiris, Shaka not in top shape, with prime Guernsey male:  *This image is copyright of its original author Scar who's the same height as Shaka ( who was also in this scene ) compared in height to 1/3 young River Pride Male ( I think around 3,5yo ):  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Shaka with a Birmingham lioness:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author Red Road ( right ) with K5 to his left and K4 in the background, Kambulas clearly with more stomach content, but still:  *This image is copyright of its original author So yeah, for me it's pretty clear that RR is in the range of the weight we were given about him when he was darted, which is similar to that of the above average males we've seen throughout the years in the Great Kruger, some that also weighed in this range ( like Mapogo ), while prime Mbiri are in a tier above that, even disregarding rangers and photographers opinions ( many, throughout many areas and reserves, hyped Mbiri as huge, enormous and some of the biggest they've ever seen, not the same hype for RR though ).
@Mapokser
Mane plays a huge role in lions apperance, male with huge mane will appear bigger and more impressive than male with small mane, even if they are same in body size otherwise. Thats why all males who are historically known for their size, also had massive manes on top of it. But guides dont take that in consideration, and Shaka is "paying" the price.
Mbiri males back in Manyeleti by Matt Crookes:
They're looking good. I wonder if there's a chance that they're moving south to be with that new Birmingham Breakaway pride ( I forgot the name ) and the Mbiri pride now that the older Birmingham cubs are 2yo, and the Birmingham pride might get abandoned at some point ( of course, for now it doesn't look to be the case ). They always have switched prides and territories when their cubs were reaching 2yo, I thought this time would be different since they're old, but maybe I was wrong. 
Good for the Mbiri male cub if they stay around longer in Manyeleti, not just quick visits and back to Timbavati like they used to do.
I would find it really interesting to see an encounter of Mbiris vs Mandevu & young Orpen son. I'd expect the latter to flee instantly.. and to see which side the females choose as both male coalitions are accepted..  
I mean the most fitting name would be Mbiri coalition but that'd be extremely confusing.
I don't mind it they keep the Tintswalo name tho.
No scars, wounds, anything on Mandevu, Nzuri (Orpen son) nor on the young Mbiri subadult male. So what actually happened when Mbiri males (I mean Zigzag and Shaka, to avoid confusion lol) 'infiltrated' the pride? Nothing happened? And they just joined back into the pride? Fascinating
The young subadult was not sighted when the Mbiri males were with the pride. So he must have fled and succesfully escaped (I also don't see Mbiri males tolerating him). It's also possible Mandevu and Nzuri were not with the pride at the time of the Mbiris' visit. But most likely all three males fled. Surely they must have at least heard Mbiri males presence when they were there |
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