There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(07-03-2022, 03:42 AM)Pckts Wrote: There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches.
Fair enough.
However, wouldn't Leopards be even less arboreal
in the arid regions of the Middle East and the Fir forests of the Caspian, Himalayas and Northern China/Ussuri?
The Fir tree branches do not seem ideal for a Leopard to perform a prolonged chase on primate and other small animals. Not to mention that they are apex predators in some of these regions, so even less use of trees.
The Leopards could hoist their kills on a few occasions in temperate forests.
Pckts is wrong. There's enough footage of Indian leopards mating and fighting in trees. Those instances did not take place in Sal trees. Both India and the African continent have a great variation in trees.
India is filled with either Teak or Sal, the largest reserves in C. India of course are Sal. You have no clue what you’re talking about and neither Teak nor Sal are as good for stashing or resting in trees as compared to the Acacias in E. Africa or the Sausage and Marula trees in S. Africa.
Both Indian varieties are tall and thin while the Africans are thick branches with heavy leaf cover and thick tops.
That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
*This image is copyright of its original author
I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
(07-07-2022, 04:09 PM)Pckts Wrote: India is filled with either Teak or Sal, the largest reserves in C. India of course are Sal. You have no clue what you’re talking about and neither Teak nor Sal are as good for stashing or resting in trees as compared to the Acacias in E. Africa or the Sausage and Marula trees in S. Africa.
Both Indian varieties are tall and thin while the Africans are thick branches with heavy leaf cover and thick tops.
What about the Crocodile Bark tree of Southern India or the Fir trees of the Himalayas?
If I am correct, don't Leopards cache their kills more often in Southern India?
I'm not familiar with either tree type so I'm not as sure to speak on them but my guess would be that the lusher vegetation seen in S. India would definitely help Leopards with caching their kills. I also think Leopards tend to be a bit more bold and look a little larger in S. India IMO. I feel like Kabini and Bandipur for instance produce some bigger looking Leopards and more often than Kanha/Tadoba even though both have a healthy Tiger population as well.
Trees in the western ghats region (kabini and bandipur are both in this region) are definitely easier to climb and stash kills in for leopards. Leopards in this region are large, yes, but this is probably because the tiger populations there are small. Tigers are really rare in the hilly areas of the western ghats and are almost never seen.
Tiger density in Bandipur is similar if not higher than Kanha. Tiger density won't negatively impact Leopard size if the prey base is large and the terrain accommodates ample areas for the smaller predator to escape.
So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
@Pckts What i meant was that African Leopards are more arboreal compared to Indian Leopards, which in turn are more arboreal than the other Asian Leopards.
Thus, African Leopards are more arboreal than Asian Leopards on a general basis.
If we rank arboreality based on tree caches and/or arboreal prey, it would be like this from most to least arboreal;
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Feel free to disagree or agree with this list.
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
Rajaji National Park is a sub-Himalayan type, so possibly a transition between Sal and Himalayan pine forests.
In West/Central India, Leopards stored their prey in Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica)
source: Zehra, Nazneen, Rohit Chaudhary, and Jamal A. Khan. "Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India." International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences 45.3 (2019): 241-255.
Gir National Park is a teak forest.
In South India, Leopards cache kills in thick branches.
I am not sure about the tree species, but you can see a thick branches. This is possibly Crocodile Bark Tree (Terminalia elliptica)or Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia).
07-12-2022, 02:49 AM( This post was last modified: 07-12-2022, 02:49 AM by Luipaard )
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:04 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 04:48 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 05:58 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 01:52 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 01:46 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-07-2022, 11:35 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-07-2022, 11:19 PM)Styx38 Wrote: What about the Crocodile Bark tree of Southern India or the Fir trees of the Himalayas?
If I am correct, don't Leopards cache their kills more often in Southern India?
I'm not familiar with either tree type so I'm not as sure to speak on them but my guess would be that the lusher vegetation seen in S. India would definitely help Leopards with caching their kills. I also think Leopards tend to be a bit more bold and look a little larger in S. India IMO. I feel like Kabini and Bandipur for instance produce some bigger looking Leopards and more often than Kanha/Tadoba even though both have a healthy Tiger population as well.
Trees in the western ghats region (kabini and bandipur are both in this region) are definitely easier to climb and stash kills in for leopards. Leopards in this region are large, yes, but this is probably because the tiger populations there are small. Tigers are really rare in the hilly areas of the western ghats and are almost never seen.
Tiger density in Bandipur is similar if not higher than Kanha. Tiger density won't negatively impact Leopard size if the prey base is large and the terrain accommodates ample areas for the smaller predator to escape.
So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
07-12-2022, 03:14 AM( This post was last modified: 07-12-2022, 03:30 AM by Pckts )
(07-12-2022, 02:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:04 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 04:48 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 05:58 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 01:52 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 01:46 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-07-2022, 11:35 PM)Pckts Wrote: I'm not familiar with either tree type so I'm not as sure to speak on them but my guess would be that the lusher vegetation seen in S. India would definitely help Leopards with caching their kills. I also think Leopards tend to be a bit more bold and look a little larger in S. India IMO. I feel like Kabini and Bandipur for instance produce some bigger looking Leopards and more often than Kanha/Tadoba even though both have a healthy Tiger population as well.
Trees in the western ghats region (kabini and bandipur are both in this region) are definitely easier to climb and stash kills in for leopards. Leopards in this region are large, yes, but this is probably because the tiger populations there are small. Tigers are really rare in the hilly areas of the western ghats and are almost never seen.
Tiger density in Bandipur is similar if not higher than Kanha. Tiger density won't negatively impact Leopard size if the prey base is large and the terrain accommodates ample areas for the smaller predator to escape.
So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
(07-08-2022, 01:46 AM)Twico5 Wrote: Trees in the western ghats region (kabini and bandipur are both in this region) are definitely easier to climb and stash kills in for leopards. Leopards in this region are large, yes, but this is probably because the tiger populations there are small. Tigers are really rare in the hilly areas of the western ghats and are almost never seen.
Tiger density in Bandipur is similar if not higher than Kanha. Tiger density won't negatively impact Leopard size if the prey base is large and the terrain accommodates ample areas for the smaller predator to escape.
So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
07-12-2022, 09:31 PM( This post was last modified: 07-12-2022, 09:48 PM by Pckts )
(07-12-2022, 08:49 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 02:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:04 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 04:48 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 05:58 AM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 01:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: Tiger density in Bandipur is similar if not higher than Kanha. Tiger density won't negatively impact Leopard size if the prey base is large and the terrain accommodates ample areas for the smaller predator to escape.
So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
(07-08-2022, 05:58 AM)Twico5 Wrote: So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.
In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.
That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.
"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."
source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India.International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.
As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.
In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).
There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.
There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.
So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
The following 1 user Likes Styx38's post:1 user Likes Styx38's post • Twico5
(07-08-2022, 04:48 PM)Pckts Wrote: You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.
In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.
That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.
"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."
source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India.International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.
As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.
In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).
There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.
There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.
So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Everything there only proves my point further.
And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.
(07-08-2022, 05:58 AM)Twico5 Wrote: So then why would leopards be bolder in bandipur? Are you saying that this is a result of bandipur having larger trees? doesnt make any sense
Leopards in almost every tiger reserve across india are noticeably a lot smaller than leopards dwelling in hilly forested areas (wether in N or S india) that have no tigers. There are no exceptions, not even ranthambore because the leopards there live in boulder covered hills and cliffs.
This leopard is from ranthambore. You wouldnt normally find a tiger in this type of terrain so leopards are at the top of the food chain here and are large and confident as a result of that.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
Quote:There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
The debate wasn't about the accessibility of trees to stash a kill. It was about which subspecies lives a more arboreal lifestyle. This can't be figured out despite Africa having more acess to trees which are perfect to stash a kill. India has accessible trees as well and indeed less prominent but that doesn't mean Indian leopards live a less arboreal lifestyle. Again they spend a big part of their time in trees. They've been known to mate and fight in trees. In India they consider it rare to spot a leopard on the ground (crossing a road, drinking, ...) because they're usually found in trees. This is why territorial males patrolling are often called bold. In Jhalana Safari Park it's much more common to spot a leopard and that's not because the area lacks trees (you've posted a leopard from Jhalana in a tree as well) but because they're on top of the food chain.
(07-08-2022, 04:48 PM)Pckts Wrote: You just called the Western Ghats leopards big and claimed that was because of a small Tiger population. Now come to find out, you were wrong and the Tiger population is large so you now you switch it to the Leopards being “noticeably smaller?”
In regards to Ranthambore, this is just another area that proves your claim wrong. Ranthambore has another large population of Tigers with a healthy and large population of Leopards and I can guarantee you the boulders your one small image shows is surrounded by trees and both the tigers and leopards will share the habitat. Even in Africa, you’ll often times see lions and their cubs resting on boulders just like this all throughout the Serengeti.
Also I’d like to hear where you think the “hilly forested areas” are in S/N India and the corresponding “larger leopard population” in comparison to the other reserves in S/N that have smaller leopards and aren’t as “hilly?”
Lastly when I say bold I simply mean that generally the sightings of Leopards seems to be more common in S. India than Central even though both areas have a healthy Tiger population and this most likely is due to the denser foliage.
The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
Quote:There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
The debate wasn't about the accessibility of trees to stash a kill. It was about which subspecies lives a more arboreal lifestyle. This can't be figured out despite Africa having more acess to trees which are perfect to stash a kill. India has accessible trees as well and indeed less prominent but that doesn't mean Indian leopards live a less arboreal lifestyle. Again they spend a big part of their time in trees. They've been known to mate and fight in trees. In India they consider it rare to spot a leopard on the ground (crossing a road, drinking, ...) because they're usually found in trees. This is why territorial males patrolling are often called bold. In Jhalana Safari Park it's much more common to spot a leopard and that's not because the area lacks trees (you've posted a leopard from Jhalana in a tree as well) but because they're on top of the food chain.
Nothing you said is disagreeing with what I said, in fact it only backs my argument.
Except for one thing, in India its extremely rare to spot a Leopard in a tree, you're much more likely to see one on the ground, so that claim is false.
(07-08-2022, 08:04 PM)Twico5 Wrote: The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.
In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.
That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.
"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."
source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India.International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.
As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.
In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).
There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.
There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.
So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Everything there only proves my point further.
And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.
1. I am not disputing that the trees might be thinner, but it looks to be a small part of a multitude of reasons for the lower rate of Indian Leopard caches.
In one study, Leopards cached 7 out 27 kills in the trees of Bardia National Park Nepal.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Odden, Morten.Tigers, leopards and their prey in Bardia National Park, Nepal. Department of Ecology and Natural Resource Management, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, 2007.
This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.
The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.
He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.
As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So it seems Leopards hoist less in Nagarahole since the Tiger has greater access to large prey.
On the other hand, if there were more scavengers and less cover in Bardia national park, then the Leopard cache rate could reach Kruger levels.
Grassman (1999) mentions that there were no Tigers, so the Leopards did not have any reason for Leopards to hoist their kills up trees.
2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.
They have cached Giraffe Calves and Zebra Foals, and there is also a case of a Leopard managing to store a Kudu Cow in a tree.
However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
It is just that this reason is not the main factor, nor is it even mentioned in any scientific paper
My conclusion is that Leopards are less arboreal in India and other parts of Asia due to either less competitors, less interspecific aggression due to availability of many prey sizes, and even less primates or all of the above in certain environments.
For example a Leopard in a Northern Chinese temperate forest would have virtually no use for trees if it is an apex predator, and does not have any monkeys available for predation in the area.
They could possibly mate or fight on a tree, but that could be more an instinct rather than a necessity.
07-16-2022, 03:08 AM( This post was last modified: 07-16-2022, 03:10 AM by Pckts )
(07-16-2022, 02:03 AM)Styx38 Wrote:
(07-13-2022, 01:43 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 11:42 PM)Styx38 Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 08:49 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 02:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:34 PM)Pckts Wrote: Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.
In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.
That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.
"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."
source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India.International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.
As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.
In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).
There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.
There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.
So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Everything there only proves my point further.
And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.
1. I am not disputing that the trees might be thinner, but it looks to be a small part of a multitude of reasons for the lower rate of Indian Leopard caches.
In one study, Leopards cached 7 out 27 kills in the trees of Bardia National Park Nepal.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Odden, Morten.Tigers, leopards and their prey in Bardia National Park, Nepal. Department of Ecology and Natural Resource Management, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, 2007.
This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.
The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.
He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.
As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So it seems Leopards hoist less in Nagarahole since the Tiger has greater access to large prey.
On the other hand, if there were more scavengers and less cover in Bardia national park, then the Leopard cache rate could reach Kruger levels.
Grassman (1999) mentions that there were no Tigers, so the Leopards did not have any reason for Leopards to hoist their kills up trees.
2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.
They have cached Giraffe Calves and Zebra Foals, and there is also a case of a Leopard managing to store a Kudu Cow in a tree.
However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
It is just that this reason is not the main factor, nor is it even mentioned in any scientific paper
My conclusion is that Leopards are less arboreal in India and other parts of Asia due to either less competitors, less interspecific aggression due to availability of many prey sizes, and even less primates or all of the above in certain environments.
For example a Leopard in a Northern Chinese temperate forest would have virtually no use for trees if it is an apex predator, and does not have any monkeys available for predation in the area.
They could possibly mate or fight on a tree, but that could be more an instinct rather than a necessity.
Quote:This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.
It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.
Quote:The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
And 87% were tree cached in KNP.
This study isn't about Leopards caching prey, it only states how the density of scavengers can dictate the commonality of tree caching. If Leopards in the locations mentioned in India could, they would cache far more often like they do in Africa with scavengers afoot. Waterberg is a farmland like most private reserves in S. Africa, it's large predators were pretty much exterminated so Leopards there don't need to cache the way they would in healthy eco systems.
Another important piece of information there was the study mentioning that Burkea Africana was by far the most important tree and directly correlated heavier kills needing more sturdy trees. Again this show the importance of thick and accessible trees which African plains has much better options in that regard.
Quote:Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.
He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.
As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.
Again this most likely has more to do with the amount of cover in S. India which as we already discussed, allows the Leopards to be more bold there since it's far easier to escape than in the Sal/Teak forests which are much harder for a leopard to remain unseen or climb.
It has not just "prey competition," Tigers eliminate Leopards when they get the chance, it doesn't matter the location. A Tiger will always chase off a Leopard, it's an inherit trait. Whether it's territory, protecting young, predation or competition, it doesn't matter, the bigger cat chases the smaller one.
If there is ample prey, cover and escape routes, the smaller cat can live and obtain large sizes even if the larger competitors are there. The perfect example is the Serengeti, there is no more predator rich place on earth yet the Leopards there are huge and live in high numbers because the prey density is 2nd to none and there are plenty of escape routes.
Quote:2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.
They do and for numerous reasons.
1st being the tree type, they have access to shorter and thicker limbed trees that allow them to hoist larger prey items up them. Hoisting a 100kg animal up a Teak or Sal tree that's much taller, thinner and with slimmer branches isn't possible for them. Just look at how far they have to climb up the tree just to get to the branch portion, you're talking about 3 to 4 times the distance then the branches being for worse for weight bearing adds to the difficulty.
2nd is the prey availability, you have way more prey options in the 20-150kg range that Leopards can go after.
3rd scavenger density, Africa has the most predators/scavengers on earth, if a Leopard can stash a kill, they will do so.
Quote:However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
Of course they can, they are no different in terms of capabilities compared to their African cousins. I was the one stating that to you originally, that was what the whole debate started on.
Quote:I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
07-16-2022, 01:45 PM( This post was last modified: 07-16-2022, 01:46 PM by Luipaard )
(07-15-2022, 08:43 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-15-2022, 03:14 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 08:49 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 02:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:04 PM)Twico5 Wrote: The tiger population in bandipur and kabini are smaller than in central tiger reserves. Bandipur leopards dont look large like the hill dwelling western ghats leopards i was talking about.
Ranthambore:
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Once again the Tiger density in Bandipur is higher than Kanha. Since Kanha is larger than Bandipur it’ll have more tigers but in terms of Tigers per sq mile, Bandipur will have more. And totals are still going to be close.
Your claim about leopard size differences isn’t backed by anything of substance as Bandipur Leopards look as large or larger than most others and certainly larger than the ones you see in Tadoba or Kanha most of the time.
And what is the point of posting hills?
I can do the same with forest everywhere. No Leopard is going to stay in barren terrain unless prey is there as well, if ample prey is there then Tigers will be too.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
Quote:There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
The debate wasn't about the accessibility of trees to stash a kill. It was about which subspecies lives a more arboreal lifestyle. This can't be figured out despite Africa having more acess to trees which are perfect to stash a kill. India has accessible trees as well and indeed less prominent but that doesn't mean Indian leopards live a less arboreal lifestyle. Again they spend a big part of their time in trees. They've been known to mate and fight in trees. In India they consider it rare to spot a leopard on the ground (crossing a road, drinking, ...) because they're usually found in trees. This is why territorial males patrolling are often called bold. In Jhalana Safari Park it's much more common to spot a leopard and that's not because the area lacks trees (you've posted a leopard from Jhalana in a tree as well) but because they're on top of the food chain.
Nothing you said is disagreeing with what I said, in fact it only backs my argument.
You changed the subject to the point where it backs your argument actually. First it was that India is filled with thin trees therefore an arboreal lifestyle isn't possible or less likely. Then after it is revealed that for instance Kabini forest consists of plenty of thicker trees, the subject changes to whichever tree is easier to stash a tree in. As pointed out before, they spend lots of time in trees therefore you have footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. They also rest/sleep in trees much like African leopards.
Quote:Except for one thing, in India its extremely rare to spot a Leopard in a tree, you're much more likely to see one on the ground, so that claim is false.
Another generalization of yours. In order to make such a statement, you have to look at the context. For example, if we were talking about leopards from Jhalana Safari Park, then yes you're right because they're on top of the food chain. But in Kabini forest that'd be false. They're called ghosts of the forest for a reason so seeing one crossing the road or patrolling is actually more rare than spotting one in a tree.
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.
Regardless,
Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.
Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.
Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?
Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.
That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?
It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.
It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?
To counter your original statement:
"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.
That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?
Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima
*This image is copyright of its original author
Jhalana Leopard
*This image is copyright of its original author
And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.
Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"
That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima
It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.
What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.
Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.
Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*
Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:
Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.
Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.
You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.
Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.
They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.
Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.
IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:
"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."
I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.
Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?
You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.
There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini
Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.
To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.
In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.
That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.
"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."
source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India.International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.
As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.
In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).
There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.
There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.
So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.
1. African Leopards
2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards
3. North / Central Indian Leopards
4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)
5. Indochinese Leopards
6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards
7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)
8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Everything there only proves my point further.
And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.
1. I am not disputing that the trees might be thinner, but it looks to be a small part of a multitude of reasons for the lower rate of Indian Leopard caches.
In one study, Leopards cached 7 out 27 kills in the trees of Bardia National Park Nepal.
*This image is copyright of its original author
source: Odden, Morten.Tigers, leopards and their prey in Bardia National Park, Nepal. Department of Ecology and Natural Resource Management, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, 2007.
This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.
The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.
He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.
As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
So it seems Leopards hoist less in Nagarahole since the Tiger has greater access to large prey.
On the other hand, if there were more scavengers and less cover in Bardia national park, then the Leopard cache rate could reach Kruger levels.
Grassman (1999) mentions that there were no Tigers, so the Leopards did not have any reason for Leopards to hoist their kills up trees.
2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.
They have cached Giraffe Calves and Zebra Foals, and there is also a case of a Leopard managing to store a Kudu Cow in a tree.
However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
It is just that this reason is not the main factor, nor is it even mentioned in any scientific paper
My conclusion is that Leopards are less arboreal in India and other parts of Asia due to either less competitors, less interspecific aggression due to availability of many prey sizes, and even less primates or all of the above in certain environments.
For example a Leopard in a Northern Chinese temperate forest would have virtually no use for trees if it is an apex predator, and does not have any monkeys available for predation in the area.
They could possibly mate or fight on a tree, but that could be more an instinct rather than a necessity.
Quote:This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.
It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.
Quote:The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
And 87% were tree cached in KNP.
This study isn't about Leopards caching prey, it only states how the density of scavengers can dictate the commonality of tree caching. If Leopards in the locations mentioned in India could, they would cache far more often like they do in Africa with scavengers afoot. Waterberg is a farmland like most private reserves in S. Africa, it's large predators were pretty much exterminated so Leopards there don't need to cache the way they would in healthy eco systems.
Another important piece of information there was the study mentioning that Burkea Africana was by far the most important tree and directly correlated heavier kills needing more sturdy trees. Again this show the importance of thick and accessible trees which African plains has much better options in that regard.
Quote:Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.
He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.
As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.
Again this most likely has more to do with the amount of cover in S. India which as we already discussed, allows the Leopards to be more bold there since it's far easier to escape than in the Sal/Teak forests which are much harder for a leopard to remain unseen or climb.
It has not just "prey competition," Tigers eliminate Leopards when they get the chance, it doesn't matter the location. A Tiger will always chase off a Leopard, it's an inherit trait. Whether it's territory, protecting young, predation or competition, it doesn't matter, the bigger cat chases the smaller one.
If there is ample prey, cover and escape routes, the smaller cat can live and obtain large sizes even if the larger competitors are there. The perfect example is the Serengeti, there is no more predator rich place on earth yet the Leopards there are huge and live in high numbers because the prey density is 2nd to none and there are plenty of escape routes.
Quote:2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.
They do and for numerous reasons.
1st being the tree type, they have access to shorter and thicker limbed trees that allow them to hoist larger prey items up them. Hoisting a 100kg animal up a Teak or Sal tree that's much taller, thinner and with slimmer branches isn't possible for them. Just look at how far they have to climb up the tree just to get to the branch portion, you're talking about 3 to 4 times the distance then the branches being for worse for weight bearing adds to the difficulty.
2nd is the prey availability, you have way more prey options in the 20-150kg range that Leopards can go after.
3rd scavenger density, Africa has the most predators/scavengers on earth, if a Leopard can stash a kill, they will do so.
Quote:However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
Of course they can, they are no different in terms of capabilities compared to their African cousins. I was the one stating that to you originally, that was what the whole debate started on.
Quote:I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
Sounds like we agree.
Quote:It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.
It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.
It literally says the Leopard brought the kill up, ate it its share, then brought down the kill.
No mention of a Leopard leaving unfinished chunks on the ground like you state.
"However, on 7 occasions we found hair from the kill and scratch marks in trees nearby, indicating that the leopard occassionally had cached the carcasses in trees, but left it on the ground after it was fully consumed. "
Quote:And 87% were tree cached in KNP.
This study isn't about Leopards caching prey, it only states how the density of scavengers can dictate the commonality of tree caching. If Leopards in the locations mentioned in India could, they would cache far more often like they do in Africa with scavengers afoot. Waterberg is a farmland like most private reserves in S. Africa, it's large predators were pretty much exterminated so Leopards there don't need to cache the way they would in healthy eco systems.
Yes. Which is why the closest comparison of Bardia National Park is with Welgevonden Reserve.
The Lions dominate Leopards in Welgevonden, but the Spotted Hyenas do not live there. However, there was also a high density of Brown Hyenas (Pitman et. al. 2013).
The Tigers dominate Leopards in Bardia National Park, but the Dhole and Striped Hyena were rare.
Quote:Another important piece of information there was the study mentioning that Burkea Africana was by far the most important tree and directly correlated heavier kills needing more sturdy trees. Again this show the importance of thick and accessible trees which African plains has much better options in that regard.
In India, there are several trees in these forests that Leopards can and have cached their kill in.
Some of these include Banyan tree, Tamarind, Indian Cherry, Indian Rosewood and Crocodile Bark.
Other possible trees include Acacia, False White Teak and Silver Oak.
Quote:Again this most likely has more to do with the amount of cover in S. India which as we already discussed, allows the Leopards to be more bold there since it's far easier to escape than in the Sal/Teak forests which are much harder for a leopard to remain unseen or climb.
It has not just "prey competition," Tigers eliminate Leopards when they get the chance, it doesn't matter the location. A Tiger will always chase off a Leopard, it's an inherit trait. Whether it's territory, protecting young, predation or competition, it doesn't matter, the bigger cat chases the smaller one.
If there is ample prey, cover and escape routes, the smaller cat can live and obtain large sizes even if the larger competitors are there. The perfect example is the Serengeti, there is no more predator rich place on earth yet the Leopards there are huge and live in high numbers because the prey density is 2nd to none and there are plenty of escape routes.
Yes, but if there is limited prey in Bardia national park, then there will be more aggressive interactions between Tigers and Leopards. This will lead to a higher proportion of tree caches.
Quote:2nd is the prey availability, you have way more prey options in the 20-150kg range that Leopards can go after.
3rd scavenger density, Africa has the most predators/scavengers on earth, if a Leopard can stash a kill, they will do so.
Yes. These two reasons along with cover affect the rate of Leopard caches. They have been determined in science papers.
The types of trees affecting cache cover have not been mentioned yet, so I am iffy if those really affect Leopards stashing kills.
Quote:Of course they can, they are no different in terms of capabilities compared to their African cousins. I was the one stating that to you originally, that was what the whole debate started on.
I was referring to this comment if yours. 'And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.'
I also wanted to add I based my reply on actual photos.
You can see Leopards managing to hoist comparable sized carcasses up trees in India and Sri Lanka.
1.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
2.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
3.
*This image is copyright of its original author
4.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
For a bonus round, here is a Leopard with an ok sized dog(?) carcass in a tree in Primorsky Krai. This means a similar sized animal carcass would at least be the limit to a Leopard hoist in any environment outside of Africa.
*This image is copyright of its original author
While I thought that the limit was a similar sized carcass in Asia, I later found out that Leopards also hoist Cattle Calves into trees.
This one was in Sitabani Wildlife Reserve, which is near Corbett National Park.
This one is a Brahmini Calf cache near Mudumalai National Park.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"One Leopard kill was found, a five-to-six-month-old Brahmini calf which had been characteristically dragged into a tall tree, safe from wild dogs and hyenas."
source: The Whistling Hunters: Field Studies of the Asiatic Wild Dog (Cuon Alpinus) By Michael W. Fox (1984)
From what I searched up, Indian Cattle should be around 80-90 kg by 6 months of age.
This means that this feat could possibly be the next best display of strength after the the Giraffe Calves hoist.
Quote:Sounds like we agree.
I partially agree since some of the Sal Woods look thin.
However, my initial focus was on them chasing prey in tree.
For example, here is a previous successful hunt of a Leopard managing to catch a juvenile Langur in a tree chase in Ranthambore National Park.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Preoccupied with the monkeys, I didn’t bother to look for the object of their fury. Seconds later, the driver stood up and yelled “LEOPARD!” I looked to my left. For a split second I saw a massive leopard curled up in a tree.
Just then, the leopard leapt out of the branches and into the tree next to it. As the spindly branches started to crumple under the weight of the huge cat, it jumped over to the next tree, which was also no match for the leopard’s mass. As the tree collapsed, the leopard leapt one final time into a solid tree with several monkeys in it."
The one thing this lady mentioned is that when the Leopard was jumping from tree branch to tree branch, some of the tree branches crumbled under the Leopard's weight.
Here is the full post: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-leopard...0#pid93900
My point remains that there are relatively few videos of Leopards hunting Monkeys or other arboreal animals in Indian trees compared to African trees.
There are some pictures in India, but nothing to the extent of footage in Africa.
Leopard Predation Thread
