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Jaguar Predation

Brazil Jafar Offline
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(02-10-2024, 02:22 AM)Ngonya Wrote:
(02-09-2024, 07:51 AM)Jafar Wrote: probably around 3 meters.
3 meters is too big for such a caiman. Skull morphology resembles more of a young black caiman
We can't even get along to its size by simple video, in which various tricks with unintentional angles can trick our perception.
in addition to the fact that if it was an adult male measuring 3 meters, it would be unlikely that it would be easily dominated, regardless of what is not possible to see in the video.

The proof that video angles cant be taken much into account are the footage of jaguars hunting Yacares in Pantanal. They look quite big even thought rarely are over 2,5 meters. Have seen footage of those smaller cousins of the caiman looking as long in width in other videos/photos
example:

*This image is copyright of its original author


(02-09-2024, 07:51 AM)Jafar Wrote: before the Jaguar releases the alligator, the boat makes a very irritating noise and so, the Jaguar releases the alligator, and we can see that this was the reason she released him, since right when she releases the alligator, she looks straight to the boat, so the alligator takes advantage and defends itself and scares away the Jaguar, if it weren't for that, this alligator would have the same fate as the Alligator in the photo.
Well thats not really a great argument for the jag to ungrab the Caimans throat. 
The boat was making noise the whole time and that didnt stop the jaguar from doing its thing.
(its a male jaguar, so idk why ur using 'she'. U can see its testicles when its grabbing the caiman to surface) 

Its pretty common for them to ungrab the caimans after a short struggle in water, as u said there probably was some bit of a fight before they started recording it. It was in a pretty bad position bringing the caiman to surface, so not only the struggle to finish its prey but also to bring to the surface

It is possible to see that in that brief moment when the jaguar releases the Black, it immediately reacts and enters a good defensive position (lower and more vulnerable part facing the water and the jaws that can do damage aimed at the danger), which would make it difficult for the jaguar to dominate the animal once again.
However, i believe that a 'second round' could easily have occurred and the jaguar easily won, but perhaps when he pays attention to the humans without focusing on the caiman, he runs away.

and we can size the alligator according to this image.
The alligator's skull is almost the same size in relation to the Jaguar's height, which is no less than 70 cm.
which would give approximately 50 cm for the alligator's skull.

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Ngonya Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-11-2024, 10:07 PM by Ngonya )

(02-10-2024, 04:08 AM)Jafar Wrote: It's not an exaggeration to say that that alligator would be 10 feet long.
the record came from Roraima, where there are large Amazonian jaguars.
This Jaguar would weigh more than 80 kg.
a Jaguar of this size would have a body length of 1.50 meters or more most of the time.

the alligator was at least 2x bigger.

like in this clip here:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Believe in whatever u want, i cant change ur mind.

anyways, i'll try to show my point of view and opinion. Check this picture, it was edited and posted by Balam in her reddit, r/Jaguarland
"Patricia female carrying a massive yacare caiman up a steep river bank. This big caiman seems to be at least as heavy as she is, roughly >80 kg."

*This image is copyright of its original author

Picture by Ailton Lara

It was not Balam's intention to mean what im saying by comparing this two pictures, but for me: its possible to see the effects of perspective and how long the caimans can look when compared to jaguars. Yacares barely reach 3 meters, but it looks as long as the Black Caiman in the video, and also much longer than the female jaguar, which must weigh as much as the Amazonian male in the video.
Doesn't that tell you something? Or would you prefer to believe in a huge Yacare to maintain the 3-meter Black Caiman idea? (btw largest verified Yacare was around 2.5 meters iirc  Like )
Well, i think it's best for each of us to keep our own opinions. Only if it was properly measured it would convince me that an caiman so thin and with a skull in the common shape of a young individual would be three meters long.
The only hypothesis i personally would accept would be a female black caiman close to three meters.
Many people tend to overestimate the Jaguar and underestimate the Black Caiman in this rare confrontation of the Amazon rivers.
A friend of mine told me about a recent report in Bolivia, where a large male jaguar had a yacare carcass he killed stolen by a Black Caiman. (i could try and post it here later)
These animals are equally powerful, but tbh, male Caimans are naturally stronger than male Jaguars, these are facts. However, they are natural enemies, the winner of each confrontation depend on the circumstances, whether it is on the shore, deep waters, land, etc.
Generally a male jaguar may have the advantage over a female caiman and younger individuals, but the male caiman will usually have the advantage over a male jaguar.
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Brazil Jafar Offline
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(02-11-2024, 10:05 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(02-10-2024, 04:08 AM)Jafar Wrote: It's not an exaggeration to say that that alligator would be 10 feet long.
the record came from Roraima, where there are large Amazonian jaguars.
This Jaguar would weigh more than 80 kg.
a Jaguar of this size would have a body length of 1.50 meters or more most of the time.

the alligator was at least 2x bigger.

like in this clip here:
*This image is copyright of its original author
Believe in whatever u want, i cant change ur mind.

anyways, i'll try to show my point of view and opinion. Check this picture, it was edited and posted by Balam in her reddit, r/Jaguarland
"Patricia female carrying a massive yacare caiman up a steep river bank. This big caiman seems to be at least as heavy as she is, roughly >80 kg."

*This image is copyright of its original author

Picture by Ailton Lara

It was not Balam's intention to mean what im saying by comparing this two pictures, but for me: its possible to see the effects of perspective and how long the caimans can look when compared to jaguars. Yacares barely reach 3 meters, but it looks as long as the Black Caiman in the video, and also much longer than the female jaguar, which must weigh as much as the Amazonian male in the video.
Doesn't that tell you something? Or would you prefer to believe in a huge Yacare to maintain the 3-meter Black Caiman idea? (btw largest verified Yacare was around 2.5 meters iirc  Like )
Well, i think it's best for each of us to keep our own opinions. Only if it was properly measured it would convince me that an caiman so thin and with a skull in the common shape of a young individual would be three meters long.
The only hypothesis i personally would accept would be a female black caiman close to three meters.
Many people tend to overestimate the Jaguar and underestimate the Black Caiman in this rare confrontation of the Amazon rivers.
A friend of mine told me about a recent report in Bolivia, where a large male jaguar had a yacare carcass he killed stolen by a Black Caiman. (i could try and post it here later)
These animals are equally powerful, but tbh, male Caimans are naturally stronger than male Jaguars, these are facts. However, they are natural enemies, the winner of each confrontation depend on the circumstances, whether it is on the shore, deep waters, land, etc.
Generally a male jaguar may have the advantage over a female caiman and younger individuals, but the male caiman will usually have the advantage over a male jaguar.

Yes, I've already seen this post, even before you probably, so much so that I even commented in his comparison that the açu caiman is visibly bigger than this Pantanal alligator.
You can't forget that the zoom of the black alligator is much smaller than that of the Pantanal alligator.

I would say that this alligator that Patrícia caught is close to the maximum and would be around 2.3m.

Balam himself had said that they had estimated that black caiman at 2.7-3m.

the average for Amazonian jaguars is 84 kg, as Balam said in another post, and this jaguar must be average.
which would be the size of female Pantanal Jaguars on average.


It's really fair for us to continue with our opinions, I agree, it could be a female.????


But know that I'm not underestimating the black caiman and overestimating the jaguar, I'm saying what I think.
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Ngonya Offline
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(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Yes, I've already seen this post, even before you probably
Ok? Lol
anyways, i didn't think you had seen it or not seen it, it wasn't my intention to show something new, it was more to build the exposition of my opinion. Whether you saw it before or not is just a detail that doesn't really add anything

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Balam himself had said that they had estimated that black caiman at 2.7-3m.
2.7 sounds pretty fair. Not 'too small' and not 'too big'. 

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: But know that I'm not underestimating the black caiman and overestimating the jaguar, I'm saying what I think.
No worries. Sorry if it came out like that. Didn't want to say that you were doing it yourself, but in general it is quite common to think that the jaguar is much superior to the black caiman, which is mostly not true.
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Brazil Jafar Offline
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(02-11-2024, 10:59 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Yes, I've already seen this post, even before you probably
Ok? Lol
anyways, i didn't think you had seen it or not seen it, it wasn't my intention to show something new, it was more to build the exposition of my opinion. Whether you saw it before or not is just a detail that doesn't really add anything

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Balam himself had said that they had estimated that black caiman at 2.7-3m.
2.7 sounds pretty fair. Not 'too small' and not 'too big'. 

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: But know that I'm not underestimating the black caiman and overestimating the jaguar, I'm saying what I think.
No worries. Sorry if it came out like that. Didn't want to say that you were doing it yourself, but in general it is quite common to think that the jaguar is much superior to the black caiman, which is mostly not true.
It looks like we've reached an agreement, doesn't it?
????

my opinion is that both the jaguar and the black caiman would be on the same level.

the Jaguar would have more dominance and the black caiman would be more dominant in general.

At maximum sizes, a 5m and 500kg black caiman against Joker, let's say, with 2.55m in total length and 155kg, the alligator should easily win in the water.

Meanwhile, the jaguar would win with extreme difficulty on land, obviously, he wouldn't break the skull of an alligator of that size, but he could kill it with exhaustion, something similar to what Machile, who was no longer at his peak, did with that one. crocodile measuring approximately 3.6m.


It's really good that we reached an agreement.???
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Brazil Jafar Offline
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(02-11-2024, 10:59 PM)Ngonya Wrote:
(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Yes, I've already seen this post, even before you probably
Ok? Lol
anyways, i didn't think you had seen it or not seen it, it wasn't my intention to show something new, it was more to build the exposition of my opinion. Whether you saw it before or not is just a detail that doesn't really add anything

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: Balam himself had said that they had estimated that black caiman at 2.7-3m.
2.7 sounds pretty fair. Not 'too small' and not 'too big'. 

(02-11-2024, 10:27 PM)Jafar Wrote: But know that I'm not underestimating the black caiman and overestimating the jaguar, I'm saying what I think.
No worries. Sorry if it came out like that. Didn't want to say that you were doing it yourself, but in general it is quite common to think that the jaguar is much superior to the black caiman, which is mostly not true.

Sorry, I'm trying to put the thumbs up emoji, but the way I said it, it seems like I'm being ignorant.
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Ngonya Offline
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(02-11-2024, 11:25 PM)Jafar Wrote: It's really good that we reached an agreement.???
I think it is. Also i believe jaguar and black caiman are pretty much on the same level, just like u said. 
Those are both the Top predators in Brazil and the entire Amazon, so its always interesting and impressive to see interactions between them.
Hoping to see more interactions of them in footage and maybe one day in person.
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