Gijima coalition

[Mapokser]

(07-31-2023, 05:58 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 05:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tylermartin! Why do you think Ndhzengas are the strongest? BDM aside both the PCM and Gijimas have shown more strength.

Gijimas performance against the Ndhzengas themselves when they were young nomads, then against Kambulas and Nkhulus more recently are very impressive. In comparison the older N'was were running from only 2 Birminghams despite being 4 males in 2020 and the Bboys track record in chasing during clashes is pretty bad, still they only returned when Nhenha was basically alone.

Then there are the PCM, they took Nhenha and NK out with negative difficulty and were seen chasing them even before they turned 5yo. They chased Tumbelas and Othawa pride killing a sub and recently a single PCM chased both the NK and Tumbela at the same time. They are also very big and physically powerful.

I don't think N'was are weak and Amahle's recent feats of resisting the 2 BDM without taking serious injuries and chasing what it seems to be the Skorro male are great showings of strength, but as far as perspective goes there's truly no reasons to assume N'was are the strongest.

I'd say PCM > or = Gijimas > Ndhzengas > BDM.

And as far as Ndhzengas chances go, I don't think any of their neighbours are threats, Gijimas are way too down south and have 2 prides already, PCM too west of them and with too big of a territory and 3 prides, and the BDM can't even properly oust Mohawk, challenge S8 or give any trouble to the Nkuhuma pride, and when they got a golden chance of taking Amahle out, they barely did anything to him.

If Nkhulus don't attack them and some new KNP lions show up, the only potential threat would be the NK coalition in 1,5+ year from now, but a lot can happen in 1,5+ year.

@WildRev nonsense? Read above, Gijimas sucessfully chased off 5 Nkhulus and the prime Delaporte male, meanwhile Ndhzengas, when they were still 4, were chased off by 2 Bboys, a coalition that at their prime ran from 2 old Majingilanes who'd die of old age less than a year after that, all despite Bboys being in their territory and outnumbering Majingis 3 to 2.

They chased and beat 4 Kambulas males and sister, badly injuring one not long ago when 3/4 Kambula malea were already 4,5yo+.

Ndhzengas never did anything nearly as impressive.

That was when they where very young and just entered sabi sands every coalition then young has been chased around so that doesn’t matter to the conversation plains camp males got chased gijimas lost a member and got chased ever since plains camp males territory  has constantly had 2+ nomadic males in it nwaswitshakas territory not really anyone londolozi really isn’t their territory nobody has dared enter their territory because they think there are 4 males still probably but still until proven otherwise they are the strongest plains camp are right behind them until they do something the black dam males haven’t even taken over a pride so they aren’t that strong because they haven’t challenged anyone not saying they aren’t strong And yes the gijimas caught the Uboso alone then the rest of them came and chased them away and haven’t returned to nwaswitshaka territory since and the third brother is gone. The plains camp males have done a lot of chasing and only “killed” one male theyve chased skorro many times but he cames back nkuhuma just returned talamati boys got chased a few months ago but came back and got chased today those males keep coming back but nobody will enter nwaswitshaka territory why is that? Also amahle and company are the reason for blondies death plus TB but Mohawk props aced him unlike the nkuhuma male who didn’t save nhenha… but basically until they are truly tested you can’t say they aren’t the strongest coalition plains camp males coming in a close second

If I'm not wrong N'was are around or almost 8yo, they were chased off by Bboys when they were over 5yo already and soon became dominant over the Styx and Southern prides. At that age and with their numbers, it's definitely a bad showing running from only 2 lions.

Gijimas were chased 2v2 against N'was while a third injured N'was was still there roaring, and one of the Gijimas was barely 4yo, while the other possibly below 5 too. As for the third male we have no idea what happened to him, we can't even proof he was involved in that clash.

Nomadic males in PCM territory isn't a show of weakness by the PCM, they always chase them when they find them, issue is that their territory is massive, bigger than the Ndhzengas even when Ndhzengas were 4, their territory has historically been held by 6 Mapogos and 4 Majingilanes, but they are only 2.

As far as "nobody dared entered their territory", the 2 young Gijimas literally did that and crippled one of them when they were still 4 strong, the BDM who aren't what one would say a strong coalition have challenged them when they were still 3, and now that they are 2 they had some sort of clash according to Mala Mala. Skorro male has recently roared in their land and had to be chased off, Gijimas recently entered their territory in Londolozi too, many months before Nkhulus entered their territory in Mala Mala, the examples go on...

Ndhzengas were the strongest when they were 3-4, but as far as duos go, we can only judge by how each coalition has performed in clashes and other stuff like aggressiveness and size, and like the Londolozi ranger says, PCM are huge, aggressive and have fighting experience going on for them, most people will definitely agree with that take and put them as the strongest.

As for the Gijimas, if anyone still doubted their strength, their recent feat of chasing the Nkhulus after 1 hour of back and forth is insane, there are studies where scientists oust dominant males by like playing 3 roars in a territory of 2 males, and usually the lions will only 100% reply a challenging roar if they outnumber their foe, the avererage lion is cautious to even accept an even challenge, so the fact the likes of Gijimas and Avocas can chase off 6 challenging, huge males of 4,5yo+ and a prime one with them, is nuts.

It's not even like the Nkhulus are shy and fully nomadic without interest of taking over ( like Talamatis or NK males that don't target other subs or random females, and can even hangout with them ), they tried to beat the Gijimas, they challenged them, but at the end, after an entire hour, the Gijimas came out victorious. Hell, the Nkhulus have been scent-marking and roaring around for many many months, they kill and eat subadults and lionesses left and right, and were 6, still, Gijimas chased them off. Reply

[Tylermartin!]

(07-31-2023, 08:20 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 05:58 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 05:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Tylermartin! Why do you think Ndhzengas are the strongest? BDM aside both the PCM and Gijimas have shown more strength.

Gijimas performance against the Ndhzengas themselves when they were young nomads, then against Kambulas and Nkhulus more recently are very impressive. In comparison the older N'was were running from only 2 Birminghams despite being 4 males in 2020 and the Bboys track record in chasing during clashes is pretty bad, still they only returned when Nhenha was basically alone.

Then there are the PCM, they took Nhenha and NK out with negative difficulty and were seen chasing them even before they turned 5yo. They chased Tumbelas and Othawa pride killing a sub and recently a single PCM chased both the NK and Tumbela at the same time. They are also very big and physically powerful.

I don't think N'was are weak and Amahle's recent feats of resisting the 2 BDM without taking serious injuries and chasing what it seems to be the Skorro male are great showings of strength, but as far as perspective goes there's truly no reasons to assume N'was are the strongest.

I'd say PCM > or = Gijimas > Ndhzengas > BDM.

And as far as Ndhzengas chances go, I don't think any of their neighbours are threats, Gijimas are way too down south and have 2 prides already, PCM too west of them and with too big of a territory and 3 prides, and the BDM can't even properly oust Mohawk, challenge S8 or give any trouble to the Nkuhuma pride, and when they got a golden chance of taking Amahle out, they barely did anything to him.

If Nkhulus don't attack them and some new KNP lions show up, the only potential threat would be the NK coalition in 1,5+ year from now, but a lot can happen in 1,5+ year.

@WildRev nonsense? Read above, Gijimas sucessfully chased off 5 Nkhulus and the prime Delaporte male, meanwhile Ndhzengas, when they were still 4, were chased off by 2 Bboys, a coalition that at their prime ran from 2 old Majingilanes who'd die of old age less than a year after that, all despite Bboys being in their territory and outnumbering Majingis 3 to 2.

They chased and beat 4 Kambulas males and sister, badly injuring one not long ago when 3/4 Kambula malea were already 4,5yo+.

Ndhzengas never did anything nearly as impressive.

That was when they where very young and just entered sabi sands every coalition then young has been chased around so that doesn’t matter to the conversation plains camp males got chased gijimas lost a member and got chased ever since plains camp males territory  has constantly had 2+ nomadic males in it nwaswitshakas territory not really anyone londolozi really isn’t their territory nobody has dared enter their territory because they think there are 4 males still probably but still until proven otherwise they are the strongest plains camp are right behind them until they do something the black dam males haven’t even taken over a pride so they aren’t that strong because they haven’t challenged anyone not saying they aren’t strong And yes the gijimas caught the Uboso alone then the rest of them came and chased them away and haven’t returned to nwaswitshaka territory since and the third brother is gone. The plains camp males have done a lot of chasing and only “killed” one male theyve chased skorro many times but he cames back nkuhuma just returned talamati boys got chased a few months ago but came back and got chased today those males keep coming back but nobody will enter nwaswitshaka territory why is that? Also amahle and company are the reason for blondies death plus TB but Mohawk props aced him unlike the nkuhuma male who didn’t save nhenha… but basically until they are truly tested you can’t say they aren’t the strongest coalition plains camp males coming in a close second

If I'm not wrong N'was are around or almost 8yo, they were chased off by Bboys when they were over 5yo already and soon became dominant over the Styx and Southern prides. At that age and with their numbers, it's definitely a bad showing running from only 2 lions.

Gijimas were chased 2v2 against N'was while a third injured N'was was still there roaring, and one of the Gijimas was barely 4yo, while the other possibly below 5 too. As for the third male we have no idea what happened to him, we can't even proof he was involved in that clash.

Nomadic males in PCM territory isn't a show of weakness by the PCM, they always chase them when they find them, issue is that their territory is massive, bigger than the Ndhzengas even when Ndhzengas were 4, their territory has historically been held by 6 Mapogos and 4 Majingilanes, but they are only 2.

As far as "nobody dared entered their territory", the 2 young Gijimas literally did that and crippled one of them when they were still 4 strong, the BDM who aren't what one would say a strong coalition have challenged them when they were still 3, and now that they are 2 they had some sort of clash according to Mala Mala. Skorro male has recently roared in their land and had to be chased off, Gijimas recently entered their territory in Londolozi too, many months before Nkhulus entered their territory in Mala Mala, the examples go on...

Ndhzengas were the strongest when they were 3-4, but as far as duos go, we can only judge by how each coalition has performed in clashes and other stuff like aggressiveness and size, and like the Londolozi ranger says, PCM are huge, aggressive and have fighting experience going on for them, most people will definitely agree with that take and put them as the strongest.

As for the Gijimas, if anyone still doubted their strength, their recent feat of chasing the Nkhulus after 1 hour of back and forth is insane, there are studies where scientists oust dominant males by like playing 3 roars in a territory of 2 males, and usually the lions will only 100% reply a challenging roar if they outnumber their foe, the avererage lion is cautious to even accept an even challenge, so the fact the likes of Gijimas and Avocas can chase off 6 challenging, huge males of 4,5yo+ and a prime one with them, is nuts.

It's not even like the Nkhulus are shy and fully nomadic without interest of taking over ( like Talamatis or NK males that don't target other subs or random females, and can even hangout with them ), they tried to beat the Gijimas, they challenged them, but at the end, after an entire hour, the Gijimas came out victorious. Hell, the Nkhulus have been scent-marking and roaring around for many many months, they kill and eat subadults and lionesses left and right, and were 6, still, Gijimas chased them off.

The nwaswitshaka don’t have experience fighting? They basically killed blondie avoca and the plains camp males beat up nhenha and skorro jr a few times never fought a strong coalition nwaswitshakas drove the northern avocas from central sabi sands but you are missing the point yes the gijima malss entered the new nwaswitshaka territory it there was a reason why gore was alone in the south rather found him chased in north followed him caught uboso because he couldn’t run away then they got chased south and NEVER dared to enter that territory again why is that? And the plains camp males defeated a 12 year old nhenha and an inexperienced nkuhuma males im not doubting them but that’s not impressive and yeah they’ve killed a ton of cubs and females the gijimas chased the nkhulus thesis males might roar and scent mark but it doesn’t mean anything because they aren’t willing to fight so whenever they encounter a dominant coalition they are gonna run until they are ready to fight and they are not id expect them to run all they’ve done is kill a female and 2 subadults that’s how the plains camps males started killed an nkuhuma and a talamati female the tsalala females mother and a few othawa cubs before starting to fight males but skorro jr returned to the west nhenha back back nkuhuma males came back many times gijimas never went back north and the nwaswitshaka territory is a good size they have the largest pride they can’t go to far nwaswitshaka defeated a strong coalition gijima tried to take out the nwaswitshaka males but didnt work and they never stepped foot in their territory talamatis nkuhuma nhenha skorro jr kambulas all roam plains camp territory nobody goes to central sabi sands why? And they don’t stay in the south long so still amahle and erongji until they are tested they are number one black dam males aren’t even interested in nwaswitshaka territory anymore because they are a strong duo Reply

[WildRev]

The n'was fought 2 Delaporte males (Eorenji and Ubuso I think), pushed off Othawa male and pride from a girafe kill, Gore and Ubuso chased some males from Kruger, they beat up blondie, Eorenji and Ubuso chased Mohawk, perhaps killed Tinyo since he disapeared at the same, Amahle and Eorenji chased Gijima from malamala to londozi to sabi sabi until the Gijima were in Kruger and perhaps killed the 3rd male, Amahle fought the BDM without being injures beside scratchs.

It's easy to say they're stronger/better than the n'was because they attacked the 2 unhealthy of the coalition and even then they couldn't finish off Ubuso despite being a 3vs1 and he lived for a year before dying Reply

[Horizon]

(07-31-2023, 02:01 PM)WildRev Wrote: Eorenji and Ubuso chased Mohawk

It was Amahle and Ubuso. On the next expedition to Londolozi, Ubuso brought Orange Eyes to track down the Kambula females. 

But I agree with you in that Ndhzengas are hard to be dislodged by a coalition of two lions, no matter who they are. Orange Eyes is looking very feisty for his size and is assisting his brother very well for now. At least, I won't believe in this speculation till I see it actually unfold. Reply

[Horizon]

Btw Sean turned into a fantastic Virtual Safari guide. It was fun hearing his speculation but don't think it should be taken so seriously. 

He says WN's back leg was dislocated, which I thought is accurate. It always looked like a dislocated hip rather than a broken leg. One of the Gijimas must have twisted his leg. Reply

[WildRev]

(07-31-2023, 06:38 PM)Horizon Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 02:01 PM)WildRev Wrote: Eorenji and Ubuso chased Mohawk

It was Amahle and Ubuso. On the next expedition to Londolozi, Ubuso brought Orange Eyes to track down the Kambula females. 

But I agree with you in that Ndhzengas are hard to be dislodged by a coalition of two lions, no matter who they are. Orange Eyes is looking very feisty for his size and  is assisting his brother very well for now. At least, I won't believe in this speculation till I see it actually unfold.

That was Eorenji with Ubuso, Amahle after the fight with the avocas had a big limp Reply

[Horizon]

(07-31-2023, 06:53 PM)WildRev Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 06:38 PM)Horizon Wrote:

(07-31-2023, 02:01 PM)WildRev Wrote: Eorenji and Ubuso chased Mohawk

It was Amahle and Ubuso. On the next expedition to Londolozi, Ubuso brought Orange Eyes to track down the Kambula females. 

But I agree with you in that Ndhzengas are hard to be dislodged by a coalition of two lions, no matter who they are. Orange Eyes is looking very feisty for his size and  is assisting his brother very well for now. At least, I won't believe in this speculation till I see it actually unfold.

That was Eorenji with Ubuso, Amahle after the fight with the avocas had a big limp

Got me to re-watch it. Sorry, you are right! Orange Eyes it was. Reply

[afortich]

With all respect, all about conclusions of who's the winner in a fight is merle speculation.
So far, all we can measure is confidence and bond between lions, and at this time both coalitions have shown a lot of confidence with strong bonds. Therefore, it is premature to say who's the winner before the occurrence of the fight. Reply

[Mapokser]

@WildRev OM was a lone lion. Amahle also shared a kill with 2yo Gingerella and her brother, contact calling his own Ndhzenga brothers instead of chasing them.

All the rest are either feats against lone rivals or against the young Gijimas while Ubuso was still there to give moral support.

Exceptions are the Delaporte fight you've mentioned and maybe the chase in Kruger depending on the numbers involved ( I'm not aware of any of it, if you have reports to share, feel free to do it in the Ndhzenga thread, I'd give them a read ).

These aren't, regardless, better showings of strength than Gijimas chasing and beating 2 Talamati males + 5 females, beating 4 Kambula males and sister, chasing 5 Nkhulus and Delaporte, and the boldness and skill to attack Ndhzengas territory and knock out Ubuso when they were still 4 males and younger Gijima was barely 4yo. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(08-01-2023, 10:09 PM)Mapokser Wrote: @WildRev OM was a lone lion. Amahle also shared a kill with 2yo Gingerella and her brother, contact calling his own Ndhzenga brothers instead of chasing them.

All the rest are either feats against lone rivals or against the young Gijimas while Ubuso was still there to give moral support.

Exceptions are the Delaporte fight you've mentioned and maybe the chase in Kruger depending on the numbers involved ( I'm not aware of any of it, if you have reports to share, feel free to do it in the Ndhzenga thread, I'd give them a read ).

These aren't, regardless, better showings of strength than Gijimas chasing and beating 2 Talamati males + 5 females, beating 4 Kambula males and sister, chasing 5 Nkhulus and Delaporte, and the boldness and skill to attack Ndhzengas territory and knock out Ubuso when they were still 4 males and younger Gijima was barely 4yo.

Debating who chased which young males or prides is pointless in pontential "real" clash scenario between 2 territorial coalitions, every territorial coalition will chase young nomadic males or unknown prides at their territory, thats their job..

If we are looking that way, then look at clashes vs actual territorial males or challengers.

Since Ndhzengas become territorial, they didnt lose 1 clash for what we know (facing Delaportes,Bboys, N.Avocas and BDM's), same goes for Gijimas (they only faced Nkhulus so far).

Only clashes they both lost , 4 Ndhzengas vs 2 Bboys in early 2020, and 3 Gijimas vs 4 Ndhzengas in early 2022 was when they where both challengers and not yet terittorial.

So its impossible to know who would get on top, but Ndhzengas are more experience in "real" clashes (although in some of those clashes they had more numbers). Gijimas chasing Talamatis or Kambula young males, means nothing, as they where not challengers, unlike Nkhulus.

As i said, every territorial male can and will chase some scared nomadic young males or prides on their territory, thats not a feat, unlike actual winning a territorial battle or succesfully defend your territory. Reply

[Mapokser]

@Tr1x24 Yes that's their job, and some do it better than others or at least have the "opportunity" to perform great feats showing us their strength as a coalition.

The Gijimas managed to chase off 6 males from a coalition displaying territorial behavior since many months ago, would the 2 Ndhzengas manage to replicate their feat? We don't know, but we do know the Gijimas did it, they displayed such strength that tthe vast majority of duos lack, as history and scientific studies shows, most resident duos would go nomadic immediately after getting pressured or hearing roars from so much less than 6 lions.

Many males also die like this, they charge at young males, fail at chasing them and get attacked.

And while I agree there's a big difference in mentality between proper pride males and nomads, feats of nomads and against nomads also tells us a lot, or what do you think a PCM chasing Talamatis is a walk in the park for him? What if the Talamatis turn to face him? Suddenly he is screwed. What if Kambulas kept the nerves, not eventually abandoning their brother? Gijimas might not even be alive now, it was 4v2 not to include the sister.

Every time a dominant male charge at 4y+ nomads he is showing great strength and risking a lot, you never know if you're facing a shy coalition or a precocious Selati, S.Avoca, Gijima... That will turn to face you. If chasing nomads wasn't a feat, dominant males wouldn't get injured and even die doing that. 

It doesn't matter Ndhzengas were nomads in 2020, they were 5yo+ and were 4 males, if anything it speaks against them that they weren't dominant at that point. And is also a very bad showing running at that moment.

Anyway I'm not saying Ndhzengas are weak and as I've said already, chasing Skorro male 1v1 and fighting BDM 1v2 ( which btw is a clash Ndhzengas lost as dominant males ) without taking serious damage is a great showing of strength by Amahle, I'm barely of the same opinion as of the Londolozi guide, that Gijimas are stronger, they have better showings, no bad showing at all ( like running 4v2 ), are bolder, more aggressive, bigger, etc.

Does that mean it's settled in stone Gijimas are stronger? No, all we ( ranger and I ) are saying is that based on what we know about them, Gijimas looks stronger. Hell, even if Gijimas are factually stronger it doesn't mean they'd win if they met, weaker coalitions have defeated and ousted stronger ones in the past. Reply

[Mwk85]

*Talamati lionesses*

Saw a clip of one of the Gijima males mating with one of two lionesses at Umkumbe, I'm not sure who they are, though. Styx Pride lionesses, maybe?

Edit: Thanks to those who Identified them, I had completely forgotten that they were seen at Umkumbe recently.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[criollo2mil]

(08-02-2023, 04:25 PM)Mwk85 Wrote: Saw a clip of one of the Gijima males mating with one of two lionesses at Umkumbe, I'm not sure who they are, though. Styx Pride lionesses, maybe?

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Talamatis are in Umkumbe so I’m wondering ……… Reply

[Horizon]

Seems the older Gijima got bigger in recent months. Reply

[Tr1x24]

(08-02-2023, 05:03 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: Talamatis are in Umkumbe so I’m wondering ………

Thinking the same, those 2 doesnt look like Styx females. Reply