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Giganotosaurus carolinii

Canada DinoFan83 Offline
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#1
( This post was last modified: 08-17-2020, 07:51 PM by DinoFan83 )

Giganotosaurus is a species of theropod dinosaur that lived in what is now Argentina during the early Cenomanian age of the Cretaceous period, approximately 98 to 97 million years ago. The holotype specimen was discovered in the Candeleros Formation of Patagonia in 1993, and is almost 70% complete. The animal was named Giganotosaurus carolinii in 1995; the genus name translates as "giant southern lizard" and the specific name honours the discoverer, Rubén D. Carolini. A dentary bone, a tooth and some tracks, discovered before the holotype, were later assigned to this animal. The genus attracted much interest and became part of a scientific debate about the maximum sizes of theropod dinosaurs.
Giganotosaurus was one of the largest known terrestrial carnivores and possibly the largest theropod dinosaur. The most complete specimen and also the holotype, MUCPv-Ch1, is thought to be at least 12.32 meters (41 ft) in length and a weight of approximately 7.53 tonnes (8.3 short tons) to 8.17 tonnes (9 short tons). The dentary bone MUCPv-95 that belonged to a supposedly larger individual has been used to extrapolate a length of 13.3 m (43.64 ft) or more and a weight of approximately 9.49 tonnes (10.46 short tons) to 10.29 tonnes (11.34 short tons), the average of the 2 specimens being approximately 8.51 tonnes (9.38 short tons) to 9.23 tonnes (10.17 short tons). Some researchers have found the animal to be larger than Tyrannosaurus. The skull was low, with rugose (rough and wrinkled) nasal bones and a ridge-like crest on the lacrimal bone in front of the eye. The front of the lower jaw was flattened, and had a downwards projecting process (or "chin") at the tip. The teeth were compressed sideways and had serrations. The neck was strong and the neural spines tall.
Part of the family of theropods known as the Carcharodontosauridae, Giganotosaurus is one of the most completely known members of the group, which includes other very large theropods, such as the closely related Mapusaurus and Carcharodontosaurus. Giganotosaurus is thought to have been homeothermic (a type of "warm-bloodedness"), with a metabolic rate between that of a mammal and a reptile, which would have enabled fast growth. It may have been relatively fast moving, with a calculated maximal running speed of 14 metres per second (50 km/h; 31 mph). It would have been capable of closing its jaws quickly, capturing and bringing down prey by delivering powerful bites. The "chin" may have helped in resisting stress when a bite was delivered against prey. Giganotosaurus is thought to have been the top predator of its ecosystem, and it may have fed on herbivorous dinosaurs such as ornithopods.
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( This post was last modified: 05-19-2020, 04:09 AM by DinoFan83 )

Giganotosaurus skeletal in Ernesto Bachmann Palaeontological Museum (image by Simona cerrato on Wikimedia Commons)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Giganotosaurus reconstructed skull displayed at EBPM (image by Neloadino on Wikimedia Commons)

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Giganotosaurus skeletal by GetAwayTrike

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GDI of GetAwayTrike's Giganotosaurus done by SpinoInWonderland. Multiply volume by 0.915 to get mass.

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( This post was last modified: 09-12-2020, 05:22 PM by DinoFan83 )

Giganotosaurus skeletal by SpinoInWonderland (the GDI of this is unreleased but it's about the same size as the GDI of GetAwayTrike's skeletal)

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Giganotosaurus skeletal by Greg Paul (this is 8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1 and 10.29 tonnes for MUCPv-95)

*This image is copyright of its original author


Purussaurus (UFAC 1403, 10.3 meters TL, 6.2 tonnes) and Giganotosaurus (MUCPv-95, 13.3 meters TL, 9.49 tonnes). Skeletals by Randomdinos and GetAwayTrike.

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United States tigerluver Offline
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#4

As the larger dentary's true size is controversial, has anyone ever compared the  two G. caroliniii dentaries by length from anterior most of the symphysis to a specific tooth (for example, the seventh tooth) for comparison?
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Canada DinoFan83 Offline
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^I've measured several of the tooth slot depths between them and MUCPv-95 is about 6.5% deeper with a few, if that helps.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#6
( This post was last modified: 05-27-2020, 01:09 AM by tigerluver )

(05-27-2020, 01:03 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote: ^I've measured several of the tooth slot depths between them and MUCPv-95 is about 6.5% deeper with a few, if that helps.


Thanks. If you have the time to share some comparative photo with measurements I'd be interested in seeing them.
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( This post was last modified: 05-27-2020, 01:29 AM by DinoFan83 )

If I get the chance to do so, I will.

BTW, I've also been able to measure several times a discrepancy of about 8% between the depth of the 3rd slot of teeth between each dentary (using Scott Hartman's skeletals to measure). So that can be used to scale, probably.
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( This post was last modified: 07-26-2020, 03:17 AM by DinoFan83 )

For those of you who have not seen my post about it in the carnivorous dinosaur thread, 7.53 tonnes is likely a better mass for the Giganotosaurus holotype than 6.8 tonnes, for 3 reasons:

-The reconstruction that 6.8 tonnes was based on (Scott Hartman's) has the pubis protruding and the belly sucked in (link); this is, inherently, unrealistic unless the animal was malnourished.
Meanwhile, GetAwayTrike's has that problem fixed, meaning it's more likely to be representative of a healthy adult.

-Scott's skeletal hybridises the animal with Mapusaurus unnecessarily, filling in several parts from Mapusaurus that Giganotosaurus preserved, like the ilium, ischium, and parts of the legs.

-In Scott's skeletal, the pectoral girdle is only restored as preserved.
However, in Giganotosaurus, the pectoral girdle is not complete; therefore, the torso will be too shallow if you only restore it as preserved (Scott even states on his website that the torso on his Giganotosaurus should be smaller up front due to the diminutive pectoral girdle).
Meanwhile, in GetAwayTrike's skeletal, the pectoral girdle is enlarged based on related carnosaurs, leading to a larger and deeper torso and overall larger mass. You can even see in the hyperlinked skeletals how much of a deeper chest GAT's skeletal has.
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( This post was last modified: 09-12-2020, 05:26 PM by DinoFan83 )

Utahraptor (BYU 15645, 5.71 meters, 660 kg) and Giganotosaurus (MUCPv-95, 13.3 meters TL, 9.49 tonnes). Lateral views by Scott Hartman and GetAwayTrike, dorsal views by Greg Paul and Scott Hartman.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Spinosaurus (NMC 41852, 75 cm humerus, 12.29 tonnes) and Giganotosaurus (MUCPv-95, 13.3 meters TL, 9.49 tonnes). Skeletals from Ibrahim et al. 2020 and GetAwayTrike.

*This image is copyright of its original author


Giganotosaurus skulls by Theropod1, conservative on top and maximum on the bottom.

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*This image is copyright of its original author


Giganotosaurus holotype with MUCPv-95 most current size estimate diagrams by GetAwayTrike. 

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( This post was last modified: 09-21-2020, 07:30 PM by DinoFan83 )

For those of you who have not seen my post about it in the carnivorous dinosaurs thread, here are my reasons for thinking Giganotosaurus is larger than Tyrannosaurus based on fossil evidence we currently have (and I'll also address/debunk what Scott Hartman had to say on the matter).

On his website (link), when comparing the sizes of Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus, Scott Hartman states "As near as I can tell, despite Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus appearing similar in size in side view, there is little question that T. rex is actually the larger theropod based on known specimens."
Many read this and believe Tyrannosaurus to undoubtedly be the larger, but this isn't necessarily true, for several reasons. Here is why:

-As I have gone over above, there are several factors that end up underscoring the mass of Hartman's Giganotosaurus by a good bit compared to what the real animal probably weighed (such as too little soft tissue and a significantly too shallow torso); using the GDI of GetAwayTrike's likely better skeletal, we have a mass range of ~7.53-9.49 tonnes for the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens, compared to the ~6.8-8.2 tonnes of Hartman's skeletal as-is. And the corrected version of Greg Paul's skeletal is even larger, giving a size range of 8.17-10.29 tonnes
The upper end of this (~9.49-10.29 tonnes) outmasses the estimated ~7.47-8.4 tonnes for Sue, thus when comparing Sue and MUCPv-95 as Hartman did, but using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by several tonnes.
Hell, even MUCPv-Ch1 is probably a rough equal to Sue (7.47-8.4 tonnes vs 7.53-8.17 tonnes).

-Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1; not the best idea as it is a very large and old specimen in a sample size of over 30, and many adults such as Bucky and B-rex are significantly smaller than it, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest specimen in a sample size of 2. 
Following that logic, if we wanted to compare Sue to MUCPv-Ch1,  we could also compare Bucky to MUCPv-Ch1 or to MUCPv-95. Bucky is literally about 1/2 the mass of MUCPv-Ch1 and even less than that of MUCPv-95, and while Giganotosaurus is most likely the larger animal based on current specimens it is not that much larger. Thus, it's not a good idea to compare Sue to MUCPv-Ch1 as it is both misleading and biased towards Tyrannosaurus in terms of comparison. Therefore, going by that as Hartman also did, Giganotosaurus is larger.

-Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum. As I have calculated in this post, the average of all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens is about 6 tonnes. Meanwhile, the Giganotosaurus holotype and paratype (7.53-9.49 tonnes to 8.17-10.29 tonnes) average out at 8.51 to 9.23 tonnes, so going by the mean sizes of all adults in both samples, Giganotosaurus is the larger animal.
What's more, we don't need to make any calculations for an average size to see why this would be the case. The Giganotosaurus holotype equals or outmasses just about every adult Tyrannosaurus specimen, such as CM 9380, AMNH 5027, BHI 4100, BHI 6233, BHI 6230, BHI 6242, BHI 3033, MOR 555, Tristan, CM 1400, UCMP 118742, BHI 4182, LACM 23844, BHI 4960, MOR 1128, RTMP 81.6.1, RTMP 81.12.1, MOR 1125, DMNH 2827, USNM 6183, SDSM 12047, Thomas, Ivan, Samson, MOR 980, MOR 008, most likely Trix, most likely Dynamosaurus, MOR 009, most likely Victoria, and even Sue and Scotty. Meanwhile, the Giganotosaurus paratype, at an estimated 9.49 to 10.29 tonnes, outmasses all Tyrannosaurus specimens known thus far. Even if we were to discard MUCPv-95, the Giganotosaurus holotype being equal or larger than just about all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens as well as the average size of them still suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger.
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United States Mstr293 Offline
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(06-22-2020, 05:15 PM)DinoFan83 Wrote: For those of you who have not seen my post about it in the carnivorous dinosaurs thread, here are my reasons for thinking Giganotosaurus is larger than Tyrannosaurus based on fossil evidence we currently have (and I'll also address/debunk what Scott Hartman had to say on the matter).

On his website (link), when comparing the sizes of Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus, Scott Hartman states "As near as I can tell, despite Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus appearing similar in size in side view, there is little question that T. rex is actually the larger theropod based on known specimens."
Many read this and believe Tyrannosaurus to undoubtedly be the larger, but this isn't necessarily true, for several reasons. Here is why:

-As I have gone over above, there are several factors that end up underscoring the mass of Hartman's Giganotosaurus by a good bit compared to what the real animal probably weighed (such as too little soft tissue and a significantly too shallow torso); using the GDI of GetAwayTrike's likely better skeletal, we have a mass range of ~7.53-9.49 tonnes for the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens, compared to the ~6.8-8.2 tonnes of Hartman's skeletal as-is.
The upper end of this (~9.49 tonnes) outmasses the estimated ~8.4 tonnes for Sue, thus when comparing Sue and MUCPv-95 as Hartman did, but using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton.

-Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1; not the best idea as it is a very large and old specimen in a sample size of over 30, and many adults such as Bucky and B-rex are significantly smaller than it, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest specimen in a sample size of 2. 
Following that logic, if we wanted to compare Sue to MUCPv-Ch1,  we could also compare Bucky to MUCPv-Ch1 or to MUCPv-95. Bucky is literally about 1/2 the mass of MUCPv-Ch1 and even less than that of MUCPv-95, and while Giganotosaurus is most likely the larger animal based on current specimens it is not that much larger. Thus, it's not a good idea to compare Sue to MUCPv-Ch1 as it is both misleading and biased towards Tyrannosaurus in terms of comparison. Therefore, going by that as Hartman also did, Giganotosaurus is larger.

-Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum. As I have calculated in this post, the average of all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens is about 6 tonnes. Meanwhile, the Giganotosaurus holotype and paratype (7.53-9.49 tonnes) average out at 8.51 tonnes, so going by the mean sizes of all adults in both samples, Giganotosaurus is the larger animal.
What's more, we don't need to make any calculations for an average size to see why this would be the case. The Giganotosaurus holotype, at 7.53 tonnes, equals or outmasses the majority of adult Tyrannosaurus specimens, such as CM 9380, AMNH 5027, BHI 4100, BHI 6233, BHI 6230, BHI 6242, BHI 3033, MOR 555, Tristan, CM 1400, UCMP 118742, BHI 4182, LACM 23844, BHI 4960, MOR 1128, RTMP 81.6.1, RTMP 81.12.1, MOR 1125, DMNH 2827, USNM 6183, Thomas, Ivan, Samson, MOR 980, MOR 008, most likely Trix, and MOR 009. Meanwhile, the Giganotosaurus paratype, at an estimated 9.49 tonnes, outmasses all Tyrannosaurus specimens known thus far. Even if we were to discard MUCPv-95, the Giganotosaurus holotype being equal or larger than the majority of adult Tyrannosaurus specimens as well as the average size of them still suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger.

I have some objections with your claims here:

"using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton" - I've seen GetAwayTrike's take on the Giga. Here's a link where him and Franoys are debating about the accuracy of his estimates: 

https://www.deviantart.com/getawaytrike/...4301804199

Even GAT has doubts on the accuracy of his claims. His estimations are just as open to criticism as Hartman's or Vitamin Imagination's (my favorite Artist). There's even a reply there that has a good point take on MUCPv-95's supposed "larger than Sue" estimations (by TriceratopsHorridus): 

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]actually agree with you that an 8% larger MUCPv-95 is not realistic for this skeletal; sometime after making that top comment I came across a GDI for this skeletal (here it is, recommended density 0.915,: [color=var(--G4)][font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]https://i.imgur.com/wK1ESRN.png[/font]) and 6.5% larger MUCPv-95 is already about 9 tonnes. If a relatively cursorial theropod (like Giganotosaurus) were to exceed that, it wouldn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint because if you're much over 9 tonnes you're not gonna be a very fast runner, and you have larger demands, thus you need more food than you can catch.[/font][/color]

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]That was mainly thrown in there because, based on everything other than mass (which I didn't know would have implications for the skeletal when I made that comment), 8% MUCPv-95 is still on the table but nobody ever uses it today.[/font]

If you think about it, Gigas are known to be predators who is known for it's serrated teeth (known to bleed out it's prey) and very fast locomotion (about 32kmph) compared to the T-Rex. The former indicating a very patient, high-enduranced predator. It wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for such animal to be bulky as opposed to being streamlined as Hartman and Franoys claim it to be. That 9 Ton estimate from GAT is a reach in my opinion. Oh, well! Hopefully, more research shows up.


"Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1" - Sue's the 2nd largest T-Rex specimen next to Scotty. While there are only 2 specimen from the Giga's part, MUCPv-Ch1 is literally the 2nd largest (also, smallest) Giganotosaurus specimen. So I say, the comparison is fair. Until more proof are discovered, it's wise to zip our lips on this issue.


"Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum" - It's not her fault Giganotosaurus lacks  new specimen. Speaking of, the problem with claiming that Gigas are the larger animals compared to the Rexes is due to the lack of specimen a.k.a. proof that this is indeed the case. We need more data to confirm that whether or not MUCPv-Ch1 and MUCPv-95 are the largest, shortest or average size of the animal? We're all really depending heavily/blindly on the estimates, and I am not liking that! It's very unscientific!

As paleontologists, it is their job to be as accurate as possible and avoid relying too much on said estimations. T-Rex is currently the legitimate biggest theropod in terms of mass because as you said, it has the most specimen and data of all the theropods we've discovered. We can easily calculate the dimensions of the T-Rex holotypes. This is currently impossible with Giga's case. It can be changed, but without sufficient data from the Giganotosaurus' part, we can't rush to conclusions. We don't want another BS spread by the media. People still believe that Jurassic park 3 Spinosaurus is legit dinosaur even to this day, you can look up YouTube comments if you don't believe me.

- Here's a link of a guy I know who did his homework. I suggest you read this too: https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a.../104739715
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( This post was last modified: 08-24-2020, 04:37 AM by DinoFan83 )

(07-27-2020, 03:55 PM)Mstr293 Wrote: I have some objections with your claims here:

"using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton" - I've seen GetAwayTrike's take on the Giga. Here's a link where him and Franoys are debating about the accuracy of his estimates: 

https://www.deviantart.com/getawaytrike/...4301804199

1: Even GAT has doubts on the accuracy of his claims. His estimations are just as open to criticism as Hartman's or Vitamin Imagination's (my favorite Artist). There's even a reply there that has a good point take on MUCPv-95's supposed "larger than Sue" estimations (by TriceratopsHorridus): 

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]actually agree with you that an 8% larger MUCPv-95 is not realistic for this skeletal; sometime after making that top comment I came across a GDI for this skeletal (here it is, recommended density 0.915,: [color=var(--G4)][font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]https://i.imgur.com/wK1ESRN.png[/font]) and 6.5% larger MUCPv-95 is already about 9 tonnes. If a relatively cursorial theropod (like Giganotosaurus) were to exceed that, it wouldn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint because if you're much over 9 tonnes you're not gonna be a very fast runner, and you have larger demands, thus you need more food than you can catch.[/font][/color]

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]That was mainly thrown in there because, based on everything other than mass (which I didn't know would have implications for the skeletal when I made that comment), 8% MUCPv-95 is still on the table but nobody ever uses it today.[/font]

If you think about it, Gigas are known to be predators who is known for it's serrated teeth (known to bleed out it's prey) and very fast locomotion (about 32kmph) compared to the T-Rex. The former indicating a very patient, high-enduranced predator. It wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for such animal to be bulky as opposed to being streamlined as Hartman and Franoys claim it to be. That 9 Ton estimate from GAT is a reach in my opinion. Oh, well! Hopefully, more research shows up.

2: "Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1" -

3: Sue's the 2nd largest T-Rex specimen next to Scotty.

2: While there are only 2 specimen from the Giga's part, MUCPv-Ch1 is literally the 2nd largest (also, smallest) Giganotosaurus specimen. So I say, the comparison is fair. Until more proof are discovered, it's wise to zip our lips on this issue.

4: "Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum" - It's not her fault Giganotosaurus lacks  new specimen. Speaking of, the problem with claiming that Gigas are the larger animals compared to the Rexes is due to the lack of specimen a.k.a. proof that this is indeed the case. We need more data to confirm that whether or not MUCPv-Ch1 and MUCPv-95 are the largest, shortest or average size of the animal? We're all really depending heavily/blindly on the estimates, and I am not liking that! It's very unscientific!

5: As paleontologists, it is their job to be as accurate as possible and avoid relying too much on said estimations. T-Rex is currently the legitimate biggest theropod in terms of mass because as you said, it has the most specimen and data of all the theropods we've discovered. We can easily calculate the dimensions of the T-Rex holotypes. This is currently impossible with Giga's case. It can be changed, but without sufficient data from the Giganotosaurus' part, we can't rush to conclusions. We don't want another BS spread by the media. People still believe that Jurassic park 3 Spinosaurus is legit dinosaur even to this day, you can look up YouTube comments if you don't believe me.

6: - Here's a link of a guy I know who did his homework. I suggest you read this too: https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a.../104739715

I can finally see this post! So I guess I can respond to it.

1: Okay, first off, I'd just like to note a few things:
-That 7.53 tonne GDI for GetAwayTrike's edited skeletal has, to my knowledge, been estimated to match more conservative estimations for MUCPv-Ch1. As you can see, it's 12.32 meters long (well within the most common estimations of 12.2-12.4 meters), instead of using GAT's original estimation (which isn't necessarily incorrect, mind you, as the material needs a better description badly and until then more or less everything is on the table for Giganotosaurus save the obviously outlandish material such as 180+ cm skull lengths and 12-14 plus tonne sizes).
Also, that TriceratopsHorridus person is myself; I have since then been convinced otherwise as there is very little different between the metabolism and speed of a 9 tonne Giganotosaurus and a 9.49+ tonne Giganotosaurus, and the animals Giganotosaurus (and carcharodontosaurids in general) were eating were nowhere near as fast as the prey of, say, tyrannosaurs, so I believe they would have an easier time getting to larger sizes than the better studied tyrannosaurids because they are less cursorial.
BTW, for what it's worth, there are some more things you may want to consider if you didn't see me address them in the above posts:
-SpinoInWonderland's skeletal also produced a GDI result roughly coherent with GetAwayTrike's. That is what they have told me.
-The often quoted mass of 6.8 tonnes (based on Hartman) is very likely not enough, because his skeletal takes the incomplete scapula as complete and the chest is very shallow as a result. Correcting this, the mass goes up to the ballpark of SIW and GAT GDI's.

2: The issue with using Sue (or Scotty) to compare to MUCPv-Ch1 is that they are by far the largest and oldest in a sample of well over 30, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of 2 specimens, and we don't know how old it is or whether it's an adult or not.
By your reasoning, if we compare smallest and smallest, we could compare, say, Bucky (3.5-4 tonnes), B-rex (4.5 tonnes), or USNM 6183 (2.7-3 tonnes) to the Giganotosaurus holotype as they are some of the smallest adults of Tyrannosaurus, just as MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens.

3: Sue and Scotty are probably roughly equal. Not to mention Sue (and by extension Scotty) could very well be rough equals to MUCPv-Ch1 with the corrected models of Hutchinson et al. 2011.

4: It's impossible to know which species was truly larger and it may never be. However, considering that even with the very poor sample size of Giganotosaurus and the large one for Tyrannosaurus, that the average of both Giganotosaurus specimens is 2.51-3.23 tonnes higher than the average for 30 Tyrannosaurus specimens, and that the Giganotosaurus holotype alone matches or outsizes just about all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens, that in my opinion suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger with the specimens we have.

5: I do not agree that Tyrannosaurus is the largest theropod; Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus, depending on interpretation could very well have equalled or surpassed it. 
As for the size of the holotypes, I believe CM 9380 is somewhat smaller than MUCPv-Ch1 - it's about 6 tonnes (Larramendi and Molina 2016) to 7 tonnes (SpinoInWonderland GDI I posted in the Tyrannosaurus thread) compared to 7.53-8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1.

6: Trust me when I say that I know that guy well and I strongly disagree with his views on giant theropod sizes.

One last thing: I'd like to post some corrections for Greg Paul's estimations for Giganotosaurus that I forgot to earlier.
On his website, he estimates the Giganotosaurus holotype at 6.85 tonnes. However, there are 2 issues with his skeletal likely underscoring the mass: 
-He has used a specific gravity of 0.85 when it should have been about 0.915 following Hartman's 2013 GDI analysis.
-In his skeletal, the preserved scapula is taken as complete when it isn't (the same issue that plagues Hartman's skeletal), thus making the chest much shallower than it would be. The correction factor, as I have went over in the numerous different points and posts above, is 6.8 to 7.53 tonnes.
Correcting both of these, Greg Paul's skeletal of Giganotosaurus goes to 8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1, which would then be 10.29 tonnes for MUCPv-95 and the average of both of them being 9.23 tonnes if we were to use his skeletal as the base.
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(08-16-2020, 04:57 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 03:55 PM)Mstr293 Wrote: I have some objections with your claims here:

"using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton" - I've seen GetAwayTrike's take on the Giga. Here's a link where him and Franoys are debating about the accuracy of his estimates: 

https://www.deviantart.com/getawaytrike/...4301804199

1: Even GAT has doubts on the accuracy of his claims. His estimations are just as open to criticism as Hartman's or Vitamin Imagination's (my favorite Artist). There's even a reply there that has a good point take on MUCPv-95's supposed "larger than Sue" estimations (by TriceratopsHorridus): 

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]actually agree with you that an 8% larger MUCPv-95 is not realistic for this skeletal; sometime after making that top comment I came across a GDI for this skeletal (here it is, recommended density 0.915,: [color=var(--G4)][font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]https://i.imgur.com/wK1ESRN.png[/font]) and 6.5% larger MUCPv-95 is already about 9 tonnes. If a relatively cursorial theropod (like Giganotosaurus) were to exceed that, it wouldn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint because if you're much over 9 tonnes you're not gonna be a very fast runner, and you have larger demands, thus you need more food than you can catch.[/font][/color]

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]That was mainly thrown in there because, based on everything other than mass (which I didn't know would have implications for the skeletal when I made that comment), 8% MUCPv-95 is still on the table but nobody ever uses it today.[/font]

If you think about it, Gigas are known to be predators who is known for it's serrated teeth (known to bleed out it's prey) and very fast locomotion (about 32kmph) compared to the T-Rex. The former indicating a very patient, high-enduranced predator. It wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for such animal to be bulky as opposed to being streamlined as Hartman and Franoys claim it to be. That 9 Ton estimate from GAT is a reach in my opinion. Oh, well! Hopefully, more research shows up.

2: "Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1" -

3: Sue's the 2nd largest T-Rex specimen next to Scotty.

2: While there are only 2 specimen from the Giga's part, MUCPv-Ch1 is literally the 2nd largest (also, smallest) Giganotosaurus specimen. So I say, the comparison is fair. Until more proof are discovered, it's wise to zip our lips on this issue.

4: "Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum" - It's not her fault Giganotosaurus lacks  new specimen. Speaking of, the problem with claiming that Gigas are the larger animals compared to the Rexes is due to the lack of specimen a.k.a. proof that this is indeed the case. We need more data to confirm that whether or not MUCPv-Ch1 and MUCPv-95 are the largest, shortest or average size of the animal? We're all really depending heavily/blindly on the estimates, and I am not liking that! It's very unscientific!

5: As paleontologists, it is their job to be as accurate as possible and avoid relying too much on said estimations. T-Rex is currently the legitimate biggest theropod in terms of mass because as you said, it has the most specimen and data of all the theropods we've discovered. We can easily calculate the dimensions of the T-Rex holotypes. This is currently impossible with Giga's case. It can be changed, but without sufficient data from the Giganotosaurus' part, we can't rush to conclusions. We don't want another BS spread by the media. People still believe that Jurassic park 3 Spinosaurus is legit dinosaur even to this day, you can look up YouTube comments if you don't believe me.

6: - Here's a link of a guy I know who did his homework. I suggest you read this too: https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a.../104739715

I can finally see this post! So I guess I can respond to it.

1: Okay, first off, I'd just like to note a few things:
-That 7.53 tonne GDI for GetAwayTrike's edited skeletal has, to my knowledge, been estimated to match more conservative estimations for MUCPv-Ch1. As you can see, it's 12.32 meters long (well within the most common estimations of 12.2-12.4 meters), instead of using GAT's original estimation (which isn't necessarily incorrect, mind you, as the material needs a better description badly and until then more or less everything is on the table for Giganotosaurus save the obviously outlandish material such as 180+ cm skull lengths and 12-14 plus tonne sizes).
Also, that TriceratopsHorridus person is myself; I have since then been convinced otherwise as there is very little different between the metabolism and speed of a 9 tonne Giganotosaurus and a 9.49+ tonne Giganotosaurus, and the animals Giganotosaurus (and carcharodontosaurids in general) were eating were nowhere near as fast as the prey of, say, tyrannosaurs, so I believe they would have an easier time getting to larger sizes than the better studied tyrannosaurids because they are less cursorial.
BTW, for what it's worth, there are some more things you may want to consider if you didn't see me address them in the above posts:
-SpinoInWonderland's skeletal also produced a GDI result roughly coherent with GetAwayTrike's. That is what they have told me.
-The often quoted mass of 6.8 tonnes (based on Hartman) is very likely not enough, because his skeletal takes the incomplete scapula as complete and the chest is very shallow as a result. Correcting this, the mass goes up to the ballpark of SIW and GAT GDI's.

2: The issue with using Sue (or Scotty) to compare to MUCPv-Ch1 is that they are by far the largest and oldest in a sample of well over 30, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of 2 specimens, and we don't know how old it is or whether it's an adult or not.
By your reasoning, if we compare smallest and smallest, we could compare, say, Bucky (3.5-4 tonnes), B-rex (4.5 tonnes), or USNM 6183 (2.7-3 tonnes) to the Giganotosaurus holotype as they are some of the smallest adults of Tyrannosaurus, just as MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens.

3: Sue and Scotty are probably roughly equal. Not to mention Sue (and by extension Scotty) could very well be rough equals to MUCPv-Ch1 with the corrected models of Hutchinson et al. 2011.

4: It's impossible to know which species was truly larger and it may never be. However, considering that even with the very poor sample size of Giganotosaurus and the large one for Tyrannosaurus, that the average of both Giganotosaurus specimens is 2.51-3.23 tonnes higher than the average for 30 Tyrannosaurus specimens, and that the Giganotosaurus holotype alone matches or outsizes just about all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens, that in my opinion suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger with the specimens we have.

5: I do not agree that Tyrannosaurus is the largest theropod; Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus, depending on interpretation could very well have equalled or surpassed it. 
As for the size of the holotypes, I believe CM 9380 is somewhat smaller than MUCPv-Ch1 - it's about 6 tonnes (Larramendi and Molina 2016) to 7 tonnes (SpinoInWonderland GDI I posted in the Tyrannosaurus thread) compared to 7.53-8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1.

6: Trust me when I say that I know that guy well and I strongly disagree with his views on giant theropod sizes.

One last thing: I'd like to post some corrections for Greg Paul's estimations for Giganotosaurus that I forgot to earlier.
On his website, he estimates the Giganotosaurus holotype at 6.85 tonnes. However, there are 2 issues with his skeletal likely underscoring the mass: 
-He has used a specific gravity of 0.85 when it should have been about 0.915 following Hartman's 2013 GDI analysis.
-In his skeletal, the preserved scapula is taken as complete when it isn't (the same issue that plagues Hartman's skeletal), thus making the chest much shallower than it would be. The correction factor, as I have went over in the numerous different points and posts above, is 6.8 to 7.53 tonnes.
Correcting both of these, Greg Paul's skeletal of Giganotosaurus goes to 8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1, which would then be 10.29 tonnes for MUCPv-95 and the average of both of them being 9.23 tonnes if we were to use his skeletal as the base.

1. You're TriceratopsHorridus? Cool, good to know. I've seen GetAwayTrike and SpinoIsWonderland's GDI of the Giga, Rex and other dinos. It seems that your findings of a 9.49T Giga makes sense, if you're using a T-Rex bauplan (body plan). I've also seen the chart they have on Stan and one other Rex (I forgot the name), and using my trusted calculator, they match your "MUCPv-95" if I made them of equal size. Which shouldn't make sense since Gigas are more closely built to other theropods than the Rex (more streamlined). I was told that Rexes have a weird bauplan among the others, that it's unusually wide (thorax and skull). Non-experts misused it's image as the standard theropod bauplan because it has the most complete specimens and is the most popular amongst other carnosaurs.

2 and 4. Shouldn't that be based on "what ifs" but rather than actual specimens? There's really no one at fault as to why there are about 30 T-Rex specimens while there are less than 3 with Gigas. But there's no evidence that those 3 specimen represent the "average" Gigas and if there are bigger specimens out there. Basically, "averages" are out of the question for Gigas for now since the lack of sample size. Who knows, there might also be smaller Gigas out there? But without evidence it's all just within the realm of hypothesis and like you said, opinion. We already know what happens when we rely on head-canons and hypothesis. We make huge mistakes ranging from what the Spinosaurus looked like in 2000 to 2020 (from T-Rex killer to paddle-tailed crocoduck). So I'll have to go with the experts on this one for now, unless more larger and more complete Giga specimens are found. Fingers crossed!

3. Most Paleontologists seem to agree that Scotty has at least half a ton on Sue. But I guess, there are some of those who disagree. But I'll have to trust the actual the majority's reviews on this one.

5. But it is! Simply because of what I stated earlier, it has the most proof. I'm not saying that there will never be Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus bigger than T-Rex (there might), but without more sample size from the rest, the former still holds the crown despite what fanatics say otherwise.

6. Apparently, I've met others like him and that I've learned how "famous" you are to the Paleo Community. I've learned a lot from them long after I messaged you in this site. Yeah, sorry for bothering you. It's just that you were the first person I've seen that I thought made the most sense in his findings. Now I know better!

Anyway, thanks for your time... "Choc"!
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( This post was last modified: 09-08-2020, 04:55 AM by DinoFan83 )

(09-07-2020, 02:04 PM)Mstr293 Wrote:
(08-16-2020, 04:57 AM)DinoFan83 Wrote:
(07-27-2020, 03:55 PM)Mstr293 Wrote: I have some objections with your claims here:

"using GetAwayTrike's skeletal, Giganotosaurus would be the larger theropod based on known specimens, by well over a ton" - I've seen GetAwayTrike's take on the Giga. Here's a link where him and Franoys are debating about the accuracy of his estimates: 

https://www.deviantart.com/getawaytrike/...4301804199

1: Even GAT has doubts on the accuracy of his claims. His estimations are just as open to criticism as Hartman's or Vitamin Imagination's (my favorite Artist). There's even a reply there that has a good point take on MUCPv-95's supposed "larger than Sue" estimations (by TriceratopsHorridus): 

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]actually agree with you that an 8% larger MUCPv-95 is not realistic for this skeletal; sometime after making that top comment I came across a GDI for this skeletal (here it is, recommended density 0.915,: [color=var(--G4)][font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]https://i.imgur.com/wK1ESRN.png[/font]) and 6.5% larger MUCPv-95 is already about 9 tonnes. If a relatively cursorial theropod (like Giganotosaurus) were to exceed that, it wouldn't make much sense from an evolutionary standpoint because if you're much over 9 tonnes you're not gonna be a very fast runner, and you have larger demands, thus you need more food than you can catch.[/font][/color]

[font=devioussans02regular, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'メイリオ, meiryo', 'ヒラギノ角ゴ pro w3', 'hiragino kaku gothic pro', sans-serif]That was mainly thrown in there because, based on everything other than mass (which I didn't know would have implications for the skeletal when I made that comment), 8% MUCPv-95 is still on the table but nobody ever uses it today.[/font]

If you think about it, Gigas are known to be predators who is known for it's serrated teeth (known to bleed out it's prey) and very fast locomotion (about 32kmph) compared to the T-Rex. The former indicating a very patient, high-enduranced predator. It wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint for such animal to be bulky as opposed to being streamlined as Hartman and Franoys claim it to be. That 9 Ton estimate from GAT is a reach in my opinion. Oh, well! Hopefully, more research shows up.

2: "Scott Hartman is using Sue as the representative of the entire species and comparing it partly to MUCPv-Ch1" -

3: Sue's the 2nd largest T-Rex specimen next to Scotty.

2: While there are only 2 specimen from the Giga's part, MUCPv-Ch1 is literally the 2nd largest (also, smallest) Giganotosaurus specimen. So I say, the comparison is fair. Until more proof are discovered, it's wise to zip our lips on this issue.

4: "Even if Sue was hypothetically larger than MUCPv-95, that wouldn't necessarily mean Tyrannosaurus was the larger animal as a species - we would, as previously stated, need to look at the mean mass of both species based on all specimens of both species to determine which was larger as it is a far better sample than merely maximum vs maximum" - It's not her fault Giganotosaurus lacks  new specimen. Speaking of, the problem with claiming that Gigas are the larger animals compared to the Rexes is due to the lack of specimen a.k.a. proof that this is indeed the case. We need more data to confirm that whether or not MUCPv-Ch1 and MUCPv-95 are the largest, shortest or average size of the animal? We're all really depending heavily/blindly on the estimates, and I am not liking that! It's very unscientific!

5: As paleontologists, it is their job to be as accurate as possible and avoid relying too much on said estimations. T-Rex is currently the legitimate biggest theropod in terms of mass because as you said, it has the most specimen and data of all the theropods we've discovered. We can easily calculate the dimensions of the T-Rex holotypes. This is currently impossible with Giga's case. It can be changed, but without sufficient data from the Giganotosaurus' part, we can't rush to conclusions. We don't want another BS spread by the media. People still believe that Jurassic park 3 Spinosaurus is legit dinosaur even to this day, you can look up YouTube comments if you don't believe me.

6: - Here's a link of a guy I know who did his homework. I suggest you read this too: https://www.quora.com/Who-would-win-in-a.../104739715

I can finally see this post! So I guess I can respond to it.

1: Okay, first off, I'd just like to note a few things:
-That 7.53 tonne GDI for GetAwayTrike's edited skeletal has, to my knowledge, been estimated to match more conservative estimations for MUCPv-Ch1. As you can see, it's 12.32 meters long (well within the most common estimations of 12.2-12.4 meters), instead of using GAT's original estimation (which isn't necessarily incorrect, mind you, as the material needs a better description badly and until then more or less everything is on the table for Giganotosaurus save the obviously outlandish material such as 180+ cm skull lengths and 12-14 plus tonne sizes).
Also, that TriceratopsHorridus person is myself; I have since then been convinced otherwise as there is very little different between the metabolism and speed of a 9 tonne Giganotosaurus and a 9.49+ tonne Giganotosaurus, and the animals Giganotosaurus (and carcharodontosaurids in general) were eating were nowhere near as fast as the prey of, say, tyrannosaurs, so I believe they would have an easier time getting to larger sizes than the better studied tyrannosaurids because they are less cursorial.
BTW, for what it's worth, there are some more things you may want to consider if you didn't see me address them in the above posts:
-SpinoInWonderland's skeletal also produced a GDI result roughly coherent with GetAwayTrike's. That is what they have told me.
-The often quoted mass of 6.8 tonnes (based on Hartman) is very likely not enough, because his skeletal takes the incomplete scapula as complete and the chest is very shallow as a result. Correcting this, the mass goes up to the ballpark of SIW and GAT GDI's.

2: The issue with using Sue (or Scotty) to compare to MUCPv-Ch1 is that they are by far the largest and oldest in a sample of well over 30, while MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of 2 specimens, and we don't know how old it is or whether it's an adult or not.
By your reasoning, if we compare smallest and smallest, we could compare, say, Bucky (3.5-4 tonnes), B-rex (4.5 tonnes), or USNM 6183 (2.7-3 tonnes) to the Giganotosaurus holotype as they are some of the smallest adults of Tyrannosaurus, just as MUCPv-Ch1 is the smallest of the 2 Giganotosaurus specimens.

3: Sue and Scotty are probably roughly equal. Not to mention Sue (and by extension Scotty) could very well be rough equals to MUCPv-Ch1 with the corrected models of Hutchinson et al. 2011.

4: It's impossible to know which species was truly larger and it may never be. However, considering that even with the very poor sample size of Giganotosaurus and the large one for Tyrannosaurus, that the average of both Giganotosaurus specimens is 2.51-3.23 tonnes higher than the average for 30 Tyrannosaurus specimens, and that the Giganotosaurus holotype alone matches or outsizes just about all adult Tyrannosaurus specimens, that in my opinion suggests Giganotosaurus to be larger with the specimens we have.

5: I do not agree that Tyrannosaurus is the largest theropod; Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus, depending on interpretation could very well have equalled or surpassed it. 
As for the size of the holotypes, I believe CM 9380 is somewhat smaller than MUCPv-Ch1 - it's about 6 tonnes (Larramendi and Molina 2016) to 7 tonnes (SpinoInWonderland GDI I posted in the Tyrannosaurus thread) compared to 7.53-8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1.

6: Trust me when I say that I know that guy well and I strongly disagree with his views on giant theropod sizes.

One last thing: I'd like to post some corrections for Greg Paul's estimations for Giganotosaurus that I forgot to earlier.
On his website, he estimates the Giganotosaurus holotype at 6.85 tonnes. However, there are 2 issues with his skeletal likely underscoring the mass: 
-He has used a specific gravity of 0.85 when it should have been about 0.915 following Hartman's 2013 GDI analysis.
-In his skeletal, the preserved scapula is taken as complete when it isn't (the same issue that plagues Hartman's skeletal), thus making the chest much shallower than it would be. The correction factor, as I have went over in the numerous different points and posts above, is 6.8 to 7.53 tonnes.
Correcting both of these, Greg Paul's skeletal of Giganotosaurus goes to 8.17 tonnes for MUCPv-Ch1, which would then be 10.29 tonnes for MUCPv-95 and the average of both of them being 9.23 tonnes if we were to use his skeletal as the base.

1. You're TriceratopsHorridus? Cool, good to know. I've seen GetAwayTrike and SpinoIsWonderland's GDI of the Giga, Rex and other dinos. It seems that your findings of a 9.49T Giga makes sense, if you're using a T-Rex bauplan (body plan). I've also seen the chart they have on Stan and one other Rex (I forgot the name), and using my trusted calculator, they match your "MUCPv-95" if I made them of equal size. Which shouldn't make sense since Gigas are more closely built to other theropods than the Rex (more streamlined). I was told that Rexes have a weird bauplan among the others, that it's unusually wide (thorax and skull). Non-experts misused it's image as the standard theropod bauplan because it has the most complete specimens and is the most popular amongst other carnosaurs.

2. Shouldn't that be based on "what ifs" but rather than actual specimens? There's really no one at fault as to why there are about 30 T-Rex specimens while there are less than 3 with Gigas. But there's no evidence that those 3 specimen represent the "average" Gigas and if there are bigger specimens out there. Basically, "averages" are out of the question for Gigas for now since the lack of sample size. Who knows, there might also be smaller Gigas out there? But without evidence it's all just within the realm of hypothesis and like you said, opinion. We already know what happens when we rely on head-canons and hypothesis. We make huge mistakes ranging from what the Spinosaurus looked like in 2000 to 2020 (from T-Rex killer to paddle-tailed crocoduck). So I'll have to go with the experts on this one for now, unless more larger and more complete Giga specimens are found. Fingers crossed!

3. Most Paleontologists seem to agree that Scotty has at least half a ton on Sue. But I guess, there are some of those who disagree. But I'll have to trust the actual the majority's reviews on this one.

4. But it is! Simply because of what I stated earlier, it has the most proof. I'm not saying that there will never be Carcharodontosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, Tyrannotitan, and Spinosaurus bigger than T-Rex (there might), but without more sample size from the rest, the former still holds the crown despite what fanatics say otherwise.

1: Actually, no. A Giganotosaurus of 9.49 to 10.29 tonnes is not based on giving it the build of a Tyrannosaurus, but rather a simple correction of the scapula. As I have explained above, the most commonly cited Giganotosaurus size estimations use the incomplete scapula as complete and the chest is a lot shallower than it would be otherwise. Therefore, correcting the length of the scapula, the chest becomes deeper and Giganotosaurus is a more robust animal than often thought.
It's true that tyrannosaurids are the most robust of the predatory dinosaurs known thus far, but just because they were doesn't mean less robust theropods could not have equalled or grown bigger than them.

2: That is why I said based on known specimens - it could be incorrect but it is most likely not and is the best judgement of this that we have at the moment. Also (as discussed in my earlier posts), considering that the smallest Giganotosaurus in a sample of 2 is roughly equal to the largest and oldest specimens in 30+ specimens for Tyrannosaurus (and we know that Sue and Scotty are not the norm at all), the largest most likely outweighs the largest Tyrannosaurus by over 2 tonnes, and (most importantly) that the smallest in the sample of 2 equals or outsizes just about all Tyrannosaurus adults so far, that does lean me towards Giganotosaurus being larger. For average sizes they are impossible to verify until more specimens are found (as you said), which is why I am using the average of known specimens.
As for Giganotosaurus, it's not really the same as Spinosaurus. We have a 70 percent complete skeleton so we know what it was like with reasonable certainty, unlike pre-2014 Spinosaurus. That said, I definitely agree with you that what we need for Giganotosaurus is more specimens.

3: If you take a look at the bones that probably is not the case. They are very close in several measurements (eg: 133 vs 132.5 cm femur length), and the error bars are so large it's our safest bet to place them as statistically indistinguishable as Pete Makovicky agrees with as well as John Hutchinson.

4: As I said earlier, I do not believe Tyrannosaurus is the largest without a doubt. In addition to weights of over 10 tonnes for some Giganotosaurus specimens (as I have gone over above), I feel we have sufficiently good evidence to suggest our only adult for Carcharodontosaurus could plausibly have been around 9-9.8 tonnes, we potentially have some Mapusaurus specimens approaching 11 tonnes, and we most likely have Spinosaurus specimens in the 10 to 13 tonne range (such sizes for Spinosaurus are also supported by Nizar Ibrahim). Not to mention (following Larramendi and Molina 2016) Tyrannotitan slightly outsizing the average Tyrannosaurus, at 7 tonnes. The averages for all of these, especially the first 3, are also all well over 6 tonnes, therefore going by the average of their known specimens they are larger. With my preferred estimates, our largest Carcharodontosaurus, Mapusaurus, and Spinosaurus all outsize Sue and Scotty by a ton or more, as well as the average Tyrannosaurus by several tonnes, so I'm sure you can now see why I consider them to be larger.

By the way, should you ever have any issues with SpinoInWonderland or his work, I recommend talking to him about it directly. I know him personally and that is what he prefers should someone take issue with him or his works. You can take it up with him on DeviantArt for example: https://www.deviantart.com/spinoinwonderland
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"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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