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Pleistocene Big Cats
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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A 20000 years old mandible fossil from Manchuria, @tigerluver.
 *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
Nice find as always, @GrizzlyClaws. Any estimate on its size?
Here are a bunch of mandibles we can compare it to:  *This image is copyright of its original author
The only mentioned measurement is the visible part of the lower canine which is about 5 cm.
Overall, I think this mandible is closer to Panthera zdanskyi and Panthera youngi. And the owner has labelled it as the Amur tiger, but I definitely think it should belong to something else. BTW, can you figure out its species even with the angle distortion/trick of the pic?
The Amur tigers from the early Holocene were about the same size as the Bengal tigers from the Central India and Nepal.
See the modern tiger canine is almost identical as the subfossil, except being smaller.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author That modern tiger canine is about 11.5 cm in total length and 5.5 cm from the gum line.  *This image is copyright of its original author If we apply it for the 15.5 cm subfossil, then it should be 5.5 /11.5 * 15.5 = 7.413 cm, almost same as Madla's. So the early Holocene Amur tiger should be slightly bigger than it is now. @tigerluver @GuateGojira @Pckts
Is the subfossil canine from the Manchurian mandible?
And I'm quite confused on the species of the fossil, I'll have a write up tomorrow.
They were mostly different animals from the different periods.
The Manchurian mandible is an actual fossil belongs to the late Pleistocene. While the subfossil canine belongs to the Amur tiger from the early Holocene. If the Amur tiger is considered as a very recent species that colonized Manchuria, then most of their remains should be represented as the subfossil, not the actual fossil. They are all black colored because the geography of their fauna level is the Manchurian Chernozem, known as the black soil in the Eurasia and western North America, that's why some Panthera atrox fossils are also black colored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem
Compare the Wahnsien mandible curvature (top skull):
 *This image is copyright of its original author to GrizzlyClaws' new mandible: *This image is copyright of its original author If you trace the contours of the lower outline of the mandible, there's a strong match.  (08-15-2015, 02:16 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: A 20000 years old mandible fossil from Manchuria, @tigerluver. Great found @GrizzlyClaws, excellent fossil. The picture definitely have a little distortion, but what interested me is that the mandible is convex in the lower area, something common on lions, although it also exist in tigers, specially the primitive ones. Could be this a fossil from Panthera spelaea? Manchuria is a large area, from what area this fossil is?
@tigerluver
I am thinking about this theory: The paleo Amur tiger = Wanhsien tiger (paleo South China tiger) The neo Amur tiger = Caspian tiger Since the North America has been colonized by different waves of Homo sapiens colonizers from the Native Americans to the Europeans, then it is definitely possible for Manchuria to be colonized by different waves of tiger subspecies from the Chinese tiger to the Caspian tiger. But do you think the modern Amur tiger is the pure Caspian tiger or the hybrid between the Caspian tiger and the Chinese tiger? @GuateGojira Guate, the fossil was found in Heilongjiang, the northern part of Manchuria. And the only plausible Panthera spelaea subspecies nearby should be the Beringian Cave lion.
And here is Panthera spelaea.
 *This image is copyright of its original author
Interesting that the mandible of the cave "lion" is not as flat as a modern lion.
Sorry for my ignorance, but as I don't smoke, I don't know the exact length of a box of cigarettes, I estimate it as c.10 cm. Am I right? If that is correct, the mandible could be about c.275 mm in total length, which is about the same than the largest modern Amur tiger mandible at 276 mm (Mazák, 1983). (08-16-2015, 04:12 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Interesting that the mandible of the cave "lion" is not as flat as a modern lion. Well, even I personally never own any cigarette box in China, but I guess this should be the standard size. BTW, the subfossil canine is about 74-75 mm from the gumline which is exactly same as Madla's. And I do believe that the late Pleistocene/early Holocene Amur tigers were about the same size as the modern Bengal tigers.
Guate, I just found the brand of this cigarette, and the length of the cigarette is 94mm, so the box should be about 100mm.
http://www.etmoc.com/firm/ProdShow.asp?pid=723
Wow, that is fast, thanks GrizzlyClaws.
Well, then the mandible most be of c.275 mm in length. Now, about the canines, I don't think that it measure 74 mm, maybe 64 mm, as is a lower canine. Madla's largest canine (75 mm) is an upper canine, so the lower ones should be smaller. If we take the Sauraha male case as a surrogate, the lower canines are 1 cm smaller than the upper canines.
The canine is an upper one, because the lower canine should have greater curvature.
Since the texture has been messed up as it has been turned into a piece of subfossil, so we cannot view its gumline anymore. Compared to the modern tiger canine, 5.5cm/11.5cm (gum/total), then the subfossil should be 7.5cm/15.5cm (gum/total). |
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