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Pleistocene Big Cats
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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Freak Felids - A Discussion of History's Largest Felines
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 (08-01-2018, 07:41 AM)genao87 Wrote:(07-06-2018, 07:47 AM)Smilodon-Rex Wrote: Those weights are incorrectly quoted. Check this: * Smilodon populator: Sorkin gives a weight of 470 kg, but latter Christiansen and Harris (2005) provided a maximum weight of c.360 kg for the biggest specimen analyzed in the study, with a posible upper figure of 400 kg for the larger specimens (like the one in Paris Museum). This last figure is quoted by Anton (2013). * Amphimachairodus giganteus: There are no estimations available, but based in the giant skull of 415 mm of Machairodus horribilis the posible maximum weight is of 405 kg (Tao et al., 2015), however this is using the equation of Van Valkenburg (1990), which provides overestimations, from my point of view, and depends to much of the length of the skull, independently of the robustness of the specimen. This animal was large, but probably a weight between 300-350 kg seems more plausible. * American lion (Panthera atrox): Anyonge (1993) produced weights of over 500 kg for this species, but his results are unreliable and are proved to be gross overestimations. Sorkin (2009) estimated a weight of 420 kg, but he used only one speciment, ignoring the intraespecific variation of the species, thus is unreliable. Latter Christiansen & Harris (2009) calculated a largest weight of 351 kg, using the same method of Sorkin but with more specimens of lions, tigers and jaguars, producing a better calculation. Wheeler & Jefferson (2009) calculated a maximum of 332 kg, using the average of the results of all the equations used, however the figure of 478 kg obteined by the equation of the femora midshaft, in fact is not using the "weighted" method and also we must take in count the fact that the results of the equations of Christiansen & Harris (2005) must be used together and not separatelly, as will produce biased results. It seems that a maximum weight of 350-360 kg seems more reliable. For details check the link: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-america...hera-atrox - post No. 13. * Eurasian Cave lion: With Panthera spelaea, no calculations of such a large weights is reported, Hemmer (2011) report an extreme weight up to 400 kg. I have not the full document at hand, so I don't know the method he used or if he is quoting other studies, but with skulls with greatest length of c.450 mm, such a weight is not completelly out of question. Smaller males from Yakutia and Alaska were of the same size than modern lions and tigers, so probably a figure of 250 - 270 kg is more reliable. * Mosbach lion: This must be the Panthera (spelaea) fossilis species. The maximum weight that I have saw in litterature is of 367 kg (Guzvika, 1998). However with skulls as large as c.480 mm, this is the perfet candidate for a maximum of 400 kg, appart from Smilodon populator. * Ngandong tiger: In the case of Panthera tigris soloensis, Hertler & Volmer (2008) calculated a maximum weigh of 470 kg using the largest fossil available (femur of 480 mm in length), but they used the formula of Anyonge (1993) which is unreliable. Latter Volmer et al. (2016) reduced the weight to only 298 kg using the formula of femur length of Christiansen & Harris (2005), however the problem is that they only used the length and not the girth and other measurements and also the figure is not "weighted", so but values are unreliable (one to high and other too low). Using the equation of Sorkin (2009) but with the method of Christiansen & Harris (2009), which is using many specimens, I got a figure of 368 kg. The forum of the Russian guys and Roman Uchitel webpage estimated a figure of 350 kg. * Natodomeri lion: For the moment there is no official figure for this giant lion, but definitelly is over 300 kg. Hope this helps to clarify the case. (08-31-2018, 07:01 AM)johnny rex Wrote: @GuateGojira also mentioned that the largest lion skull that he know measured 432 mm (17 in) in greatest length and 280 mm in zygomatic wide (11.0625 in). He said this is also in Rowland Ward’s Records of Big Game of 1914. Regarding the skull of 432 mm, it is no loger reliable, check what I have found: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-...eo?page=11 - Post No. 153. I will not trust in any of the records from Rowland Ward in "this" edition, because it doesn't say which is measured by "Rowland Ward's team" and which were "owner's measurements". At least in the 5th edition of 1914 there was a clear separation between the sources of the measurements. If you want to know reliable measurements of wild lions skulls, Hollister (1918), Allen (1942), Mazák (2013-1983) and Roberts (1951) are among the best sources. 
@GuateGojira Ngandong tiger might no longer be considered as the largest Sunda tiger.
There was a more recent specimen that could be potentially larger based on a fragmented mandible. (09-06-2018, 09:24 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: @GuateGojira Ngandong tiger might no longer be considered as the largest Sunda tiger. Really??? Tell me more please...  Is already published in this forum? (09-07-2018, 12:46 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-06-2018, 09:24 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: @GuateGojira Ngandong tiger might no longer be considered as the largest Sunda tiger. It is a fragmented mandible now under the possession of @tigerluver, not sure when he will publish all information in the paper format. This is definitely a huge animal also chronologically quite recent, probably no more than 50 kya old, more likely corresponding to the transitional form between the Ngandong tiger and the modern Sunda tiger.  *This image is copyright of its original author
This is fascinating!!! There is a lot of thing that I need to update in my database. At least these are good news!
 Thank you @GrizzlyClaws (09-07-2018, 01:17 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: This is fascinating!!! There is a lot of thing that I need to update in my database. At least these are good news! Here is the page that we started the discussion on it. https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-freak-felids-a-discussion-of-history-s-largest-felines?page=55 The full mandible was estimated to be anything between 31-33 cm, and it could be almost 4 times heavier than a mandible of an average modern Sunda tiger! Definitely one of the largest cats of all time.  (09-08-2018, 10:42 AM)genao87 Wrote: welcome back Guate Gojira! long time no see. also about the Mosbach lion. I thought for sure it was a max weight of 330-350kg with 300kg on average. but you are saying that sucker could reach 400kg?? Hello again @genao87! Nice to see you to again! About the weight, I think that the sizes of those lions are too large to ignore, and check that if we take all the specimens of that time (under the name Panthera (spelaea) fossilis), we can see that those sizes are too extream, and may reflect animals beyon our imagination. Like I said, with a huge skull of 484.7 mm in GSL, the specimen Chateau CHA.1.98.C3-246 is a perfect candidate for a weight of at least 380 kg, and if all the other bones are as massive as it skull, I see no problem to estimate it at about 400 kg or a little less. (09-08-2018, 11:33 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-08-2018, 10:42 AM)genao87 Wrote: welcome back Guate Gojira! long time no see. also about the Mosbach lion. I thought for sure it was a max weight of 330-350kg with 300kg on average. but you are saying that sucker could reach 400kg?? damn, so this sucker is a contender for the largest cat? I thought the Nngong Tiger grew slightly larger than this "lion". Can't wait to hear Tigerluver's paper on Panthara Tigris Oxygnatha, the tiger that is possibly the largest Tiger that ever existed. I assuming this guy to be like 400kg. I believe reading tigerluver's post in the past and others that this "lion" is not a true lion and its own cat? Have to re-read his posts again. (09-08-2018, 07:14 PM)genao87 Wrote:(09-08-2018, 11:33 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:(09-08-2018, 10:42 AM)genao87 Wrote: welcome back Guate Gojira! long time no see. also about the Mosbach lion. I thought for sure it was a max weight of 330-350kg with 300kg on average. but you are saying that sucker could reach 400kg?? Panthera tigris oxygnatha was too antiquated for that specimen, since it was quite recent which was no more than 50,000 years old. According to @tigerluver, that giant tiger already belonged to the era of the modern tigers.
grizz, so you saying that is a different tiger species? if so then which one?
(09-08-2018, 10:22 PM)genao87 Wrote: grizz, so you saying that is a different tiger species? if so then which one? It seems that acording with the posts of @tigerluver and @GrizzlyClaws, this new tiger was indeed a huge specimen, I mean, a mandible of over 30 cm is very large! Also, all the "lion" from the Pleistocene are not lions at all, but a completelly diferent species. So Panthera fossilis, Panthera spelaea and Panthera atrox are NOT lions, but they own species and is suported by morphology and DNA studies, which is great! Giant lions, just that of Natodomeri and even that large lion was not larger than the largest P. atrox or P. spelaea and probably no larger than P. tigris soloensis.  (09-08-2018, 10:44 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:I thought its panthera leo atrox, or is the taxonomy still disputed? Are they lions or they just have a common ancestor?(09-08-2018, 10:22 PM)genao87 Wrote: grizz, so you saying that is a different tiger species? if so then which one?
Not anymore. New taxonomy is only Panthera atrox, as those giant lion-like cats are not subspecies of the modern lion, not even clades, but completelly diferent species, just like leopards or jaguars.
In few words, the last Panthera species to evolve were jaguars, leopards, lions and Spelaea-Atrox. Tigers and snow leopards are older. The document that finally clarify this taxonomical issue is "Mitogenomics of the Extinct Cave Lion, Panthera spelaea (Goldfuss, 1810), Resolve its Position within the Panthera Cats", from Dr Ross Barnett and his team, published in 2016. The link for the document is: https://www.openquaternary.com/articles/10.5334/oq.24/ Don't believe in Wikipedia, there is a group of "fans" that don't allow to make any change in the pages, believe me I tried but they just return it to the form that THEY want, not the form that reflect the new scientific discoveries. |
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