There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Quote: "We concluded that jaguars were not dominant over pumas in our study area, in contrast to other areas where the species exhibit clear temporal, spatial, or behavioral differences (Novack et al., 2005; Harmsen et al., 2009; Romero-Muñoz et al., 2010). When competitors from different species have similar body sizes and similar diet, encounters and physical confrontations tend to be avoided since an attack carries high risks for both species, even when potential benefits are large (Donadio & Buskirk, 2006; Ramesh et al., 2012; Vanak et al., 2013). "
10-14-2020, 02:33 PM( This post was last modified: 10-14-2020, 02:38 PM by Balam )
The post above doesn't contradict anything Dark Jaguar or myself have posted on here. Where jaguars are larger cougars will avoid the area, and killings of one species as caused of the other one have only been registered one way, and it's never the jaguar that's killed. Killings of cougars registered of course in Central America where jaguars are smaller, as well as in the Pantanal.
(10-14-2020, 02:33 PM)Balam Wrote: The post above doesn't contradict anything Dark Jaguar or myself have posted on here. Where jaguars are larger cougars will avoid the area, and killings of one species as caused of the other one have only been registered one way, and it's never the jaguar that's killed. Killings of cougars registered of course in Central America where jaguars are smaller, as well as in the Pantanal.
It is a study for people who are interested. What you or Dark Jaguar think are your thoughts and there are many other thoughts too. Since there is so little information about actual violent confrontations it´s always interesting to see what studies tell and what kind of conclusions experts make. There is a lot if speculation and for me it´s just logical to think, that when two species overlap in size, both species lose some individuals even though known cases are rare. Conclusion of this study is just like I think here: "When competitors from different species have similar body sizes and similar diet, encounters and physical confrontations tend to be avoided since an attack carries high risks for both species, even when potential benefits are large"
If you and @Dark Jaguar think, that there is no risk for jaguars, then you seem to be in contradiction with conclusions with that study and also with my personal thoughts and with personal thoughts of some other people. It´s that simple and nothing dangerous. As I said earlier, you are free to have your opinions, but you need to understand it too, that there are other opinions with good reasoning too. From some issues there is quite little information. Mutual respect/fear is often a good factor to keep animals and even humans out of trouble :)
@Shadow what Dark Jaguar and I posted was backed up by studies as well, nothing was merely based on "personal speculation" and not once did we make a personal attack on anyone to warrant the "respect other opinions" claim. If you're in a debate forum you should expect others to debate or disagree with what you said, so I'm not retracting anything. In fact the only one that went on to make accusations about the reasoning of our opinions was you.
The study you posted showed that when the two species overlap in size there is no clear dominance of one over the other, this dissipates when the jaguar is the larger animal. Furthermore, the cougars of Central America have never been registered badly injuring or killing a jaguar, while the opposite has been recorded as mentioned before, hence why there is reason to suggest that the jaguar will come out as victorious in a fight more oftem than not thanks to its more robust build which translates to more body strength.
10-14-2020, 03:33 PM( This post was last modified: 10-14-2020, 03:35 PM by Shadow )
(10-14-2020, 03:31 PM)Balam Wrote: @Shadow what Dark Jaguar and I posted was backed up by studies as well, nothing was merely based on "personal speculation" and not once did we make a personal attack on anyone to warrant the "respect other opinions" claim. If you're in a debate forum you should expect others to debate or disagree with what you said, so I'm not retracting anything. In fact the only one that went on to make accusations about the reasoning of our opinions was you.
The study you posted showed that when the two species overlap in size there is no clear dominance of one over the other, this dissipates when the jaguar is the larger animal. Furthermore, the cougars of Central America have never been registered badly injuring or killing a jaguar, while the opposite has been recorded as mentioned before, hence why there is reason to suggest that the jaguar will come out as victorious in a fight more oftem than not thanks to its more robust build which translates to more body strength.
Good, so now your opinion is clear and so is mine. So everything should be ok now and people can read what was said and why we see things a bit differently.
10-14-2020, 03:51 PM( This post was last modified: 10-14-2020, 03:58 PM by Shadow )
(10-14-2020, 03:31 PM)Balam Wrote: @Shadow what Dark Jaguar and I posted was backed up by studies as well, nothing was merely based on "personal speculation" and not once did we make a personal attack on anyone to warrant the "respect other opinions" claim. If you're in a debate forum you should expect others to debate or disagree with what you said, so I'm not retracting anything. In fact the only one that went on to make accusations about the reasoning of our opinions was you.
The study you posted showed that when the two species overlap in size there is no clear dominance of one over the other, this dissipates when the jaguar is the larger animal. Furthermore, the cougars of Central America have never been registered badly injuring or killing a jaguar, while the opposite has been recorded as mentioned before, hence why there is reason to suggest that the jaguar will come out as victorious in a fight more oftem than not thanks to its more robust build which translates to more body strength.
One addition. Before you try to lecture about respect and other things, remember this what you wrote quite a little time ago: "And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar."
And that sentence was related to quite poor example to what comes to this kind of issue overall. It´s ok to have opinions, but when talking about respect, it´s good to think twice before writing things. You didn´t show much respect there to people who disagree you if asked from me. So I hope that after this you also remember, that disagreeing is ok, but what comes to disrespecting it´s another thing.
10-14-2020, 04:04 PM( This post was last modified: 10-14-2020, 06:35 PM by Balam )
(10-14-2020, 03:51 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(10-14-2020, 03:31 PM)Balam Wrote: @Shadow what Dark Jaguar and I posted was backed up by studies as well, nothing was merely based on "personal speculation" and not once did we make a personal attack on anyone to warrant the "respect other opinions" claim. If you're in a debate forum you should expect others to debate or disagree with what you said, so I'm not retracting anything. In fact the only one that went on to make accusations about the reasoning of our opinions was you.
The study you posted showed that when the two species overlap in size there is no clear dominance of one over the other, this dissipates when the jaguar is the larger animal. Furthermore, the cougars of Central America have never been registered badly injuring or killing a jaguar, while the opposite has been recorded as mentioned before, hence why there is reason to suggest that the jaguar will come out as victorious in a fight more oftem than not thanks to its more robust build which translates to more body strength.
One addition. Before you try to lecture about respect and other things, remember this what you wrote quite a little time ago: "And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar."
And that sentence was related to quite poor example to what comes to this kind of issue overall. It´s ok to have opinions, but when talking about respect, it´s good to think twice before writing things. You didn´t show much respect there to people who disagree you if asked from me. So I hope that after this you also remember, that disagreeing is ok, but what comes to disrespecting it´s another thing.
I'm not going to go in circles about this, my initial claim was that a smaller animal is not going to put up a fight against a larger one and come out victorious, and I stand by that. The statement was made in a general sense and not targetting anybody specifically as it reflects things I have seen posted on other places. The same way that people here make statements regarding claims they deem as unfounded by others without getting lectured for it, because it's a subjective opinion.
You have a right to disagree and that is your prerogative, on my side I'm not changing anything.
(10-14-2020, 03:31 PM)Balam Wrote: @Shadow what Dark Jaguar and I posted was backed up by studies as well, nothing was merely based on "personal speculation" and not once did we make a personal attack on anyone to warrant the "respect other opinions" claim. If you're in a debate forum you should expect others to debate or disagree with what you said, so I'm not retracting anything. In fact the only one that went on to make accusations about the reasoning of our opinions was you.
The study you posted showed that when the two species overlap in size there is no clear dominance of one over the other, this dissipates when the jaguar is the larger animal. Furthermore, the cougars of Central America have never been registered badly injuring or killing a jaguar, while the opposite has been recorded as mentioned before, hence why there is reason to suggest that the jaguar will come out as victorious in a fight more oftem than not thanks to its more robust build which translates to more body strength.
One addition. Before you try to lecture about respect and other things, remember this what you wrote quite a little time ago: "And there are people who unironically believe a leopard can put up a fight against a lioness or a much larger jaguar."
And that sentence was related to quite poor example to what comes to this kind of issue overall. It´s ok to have opinions, but when talking about respect, it´s good to think twice before writing things. You didn´t show much respect there to people who disagree you if asked from me. So I hope that after this you also remember, that disagreeing is ok, but what comes to disrespecting it´s another thing.
I'm not going to go in circles about this, my initial claimed was that a smaller animal is not going to put up a fight against a larger one and come out victorious, and I stand by that. The statement was made in a general sense and not targetting anybody specifically as it reflects things I have seen posted on other places. The same way that people here make statements regarding claims they deem as unfounded by others without getting lectured for it, because it's a subjective opinion.
You have a right to disagree and that is your prerogative, on my side I'm not changing anything.
That statement and opinion is ok to say. Reasoning and opinions are never problem here as long as keeping things in reasonable level. Jaguars, pumas and leopards have all people liking them and for some reason some minor issues seem to cause often a lot of tension.
Disagreeing isn´t prerogative for anyone here, it´s what everyone are entitled in wildfact, when able to give good reasoning. Moderators intervene only when reasoning has no sense whatsoever or people forget manners too much. As could be seen here, no problem to speak out. What comes to my thoughts concerning jaguars, pumas and leopards, postings #277 and #279 open up my thoughts if someone see this and is interested.
Exept the info from my post isn't only based on ''what I think'' or neither ''IF'' speculation as they also include results of long term researches made in 2 different biomes of Brazil stated by the people who work in the field themselves for many years in both Iguaçú and Refúgio Ecológico Caiman and not to mention the other areas (as stated by Joares May on the Puma case ) as these people travel the whole country seeking for captures and researches, so nothing better than they themselves confirm the fact that Pumas will seek smaller preys and will avoid direct encounter with Jaguars. The mutual respect could probably happen in Caatinga.
Indeed there's very little information on violent direct interspecific confrontation of these animals and the reason why we can already have an accurate idea just by the fact Pumas won't show up in areas jaguars are seen the most exept during certain times of the day because there are a larger, bulky, big headed cat roaming around in the same enviornment.
Pumas are powerful cats but most of places they coexist with jaguars, they are smaller than the jaguar.
In addition to that I am gonna drop a part of the PHD study by Leandro Silveira ( COMPARATIVE ECOLOGY AND CONSERVATION OF JAGUAR (PANTHERA ONCA) AND PUMA (PUMA CONCOLOR), IN THE CERRADO AND PANTANAL ) about the difference in habitat of the 2 species in PNE ( Parque Nacional das Emas ) area of Cerrado.
Here's the PNE map the red triangles are the Cerrado Jaguars tracks monitored and the black dots are the Cerrado Pumas tracks monitored between January 2001 and December 2002.
Figure 24
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The differences in habitat use between jaguars and pumas in the Emas National Park region (PNE) analyzed through radio-telemetry, reflect the distribution of individuals monitored (Figure 21 and 24). Cerrado Jaguars were rarely observed outside the boundaries of the PNE, while almost all individuals of Cerrado Pumas monitored at some point left the reserve, with only one exception (Figure 24). Thus, anthropized habitats were part of the landscape used by Pumas, much more than for jaguars.
The results from the use of habitats by Cerrado Jaguars in the PNE region, between January 2001 and December 2002, indicated that the niche of the species comprises basically two segments of areas: the eastern region of the Park formed by the valley that encompasses the springs on the right bank of the Jacuba River, leaving the Park, to the proximities of the mouth with the Rio Formoso and the headwaters of the Cabeceira Alta and Rio Formoso streams (Figures 24 and 25). The Pumas did not restrict their distribution and habitat use in the same way (Figure 24).
Despite the apparent uniformity of the habitat of Campo Sujo in the eastern region of the PNE, where the Cerrado jaguars were concentrated, it was observed that the individuals monitored used the flat areas of slate more in the nocturnal than in the diurnal period (Figure 26).''
I am pretty sure if the Cerrado Jaguars weren't occuping the PNE area on large scale within that period of time there would be way more Cerrado Pumas venturing into the PNE area.
Exept the info from my post isn't only based on ''what I think'' or neither ''IF'' speculation as they also include results of long term researches made in 2 different biomes of Brazil stated by the people who work in the field themselves for many years in both Iguaçú and Refúgio Ecológico Caiman and not to mention the other areas (as stated by Joares May on the Puma case ) as these people travel the whole country seeking for captures and researches, so nothing better than they themselves confirm the fact that Pumas will seek smaller preys and will avoid direct encounter with Jaguars. The mutual respect could probably happen in Caatinga.
Indeed there's very little information on violent direct interspecific confrontation of these animals and the reason why we can already have an accurate idea just by the fact Pumas won't show up in areas jaguars are seen the most exept during certain times of the day because there are a larger, bulky, big headed cat roaming around in the same enviornment.
Pumas are powerful cats but most of places they coexist with jaguars, they are smaller than the jaguar.
In addition to that I am gonna drop a part of the PHD study by Leandro Silveira ( COMPARATIVE ECOLOGY AND CONSERVATION OF JAGUAR (PANTHERA ONCA) AND PUMA (PUMA CONCOLOR), IN THE CERRADO AND PANTANAL ) about the difference in habitat of the 2 species in PNE ( Parque Nacional das Emas ) area of Cerrado.
Here's the PNE map the red triangles are the Cerrado Jaguars tracks monitored and the black dots are the Cerrado Pumas tracks monitored between January 2001 and December 2002.
Figure 24
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The differences in habitat use between jaguars and pumas in the Emas National Park region (PNE) analyzed through radio-telemetry, reflect the distribution of individuals monitored (Figure 21 and 24). Cerrado Jaguars were rarely observed outside the boundaries of the PNE, while almost all individuals of Cerrado Pumas monitored at some point left the reserve, with only one exception (Figure 24). Thus, anthropized habitats were part of the landscape used by Pumas, much more than for jaguars.
The results from the use of habitats by Cerrado Jaguars in the PNE region, between January 2001 and December 2002, indicated that the niche of the species comprises basically two segments of areas: the eastern region of the Park formed by the valley that encompasses the springs on the right bank of the Jacuba River, leaving the Park, to the proximities of the mouth with the Rio Formoso and the headwaters of the Cabeceira Alta and Rio Formoso streams (Figures 24 and 25). The Pumas did not restrict their distribution and habitat use in the same way (Figure 24).
Despite the apparent uniformity of the habitat of Campo Sujo in the eastern region of the PNE, where the Cerrado jaguars were concentrated, it was observed that the individuals monitored used the flat areas of slate more in the nocturnal than in the diurnal period (Figure 26).''
I am pretty sure if the Cerrado Jaguars weren't occuping the PNE area on large scale within that period of time there would be way more Cerrado Pumas venturing into the PNE area.
I´ve tried to give quite clear hints about certain things which create often closely to ridiculous problems in these threads.
One is, that people corner themselves too strongly to "tiger corner", "lion corner", "jaguar corner", "leopard corner" or whatever. Then when there is something even slightly suggested, that the animal which is under observation isn´t perfect, starts debate in which misunderstandings happen even on purpose or because people are blinded by preferring too much one species.
Like now, one minor thing, can a leopard give a good fight to a jaguar sometimes, cause tons of "evidence" that no, not ever or not in any way, not possible... you get what I mean? Same time we have video evidence showing, that occasionally even tigers and lions back off from leopards. And some expert opinions, that fights could have heavy price for both species.
So, no-one here can convince for instance me, that a leopard couldn´t time to time give a very good fight to a jaguar too if such incident for some reason would happen. And same with pumas, they overlap in size and even when not, size difference isn´t always extreme.
So in species level, of course jaguars are bigger and more dominant, same naturally with tigers and lions, overall leopard is no match. But. But in some occasions smaller cat can give to a bigger one more than bigger one is willing to take and it can even back off. Why not even die later to some injuries caused by fight, I don´t see any reason why not in some occasions even though not usually. And some experts seem to think the same as I and many others.
So when we disagree about this minor and quite meaningless issue overall, it doesn´t mean, that disagreement would be about everything.
Then another point of view, it´s well known that sometimes big cats as all predators fail in hunting and get injuries and even succumb later to those wounds/internal injuries. So how come a big leopard or puma couldn´t cause injuries, when it´s well known, that many smaller animals time to time cause painful injuries to predators or even death.
But main point would be still, that people in these threads would learn to look closer what is said and think a moment why some other can think differently. It´s useless to debate about this issue really, I and some others see some things differently than for instance you and some things in same way. You can´t "win" this discussion, all relevant things are on the table and I have nothing to change to my previous postings, you didn´t provide any reason for me to do so, when I look at things based on my observations and things I´ve read and seen on videos etc.
One addition, I don´t wait to "win" this discussion either. I simply told why I see, that a leopard or a puma can give to a jaguar a very good fight time to time if things would go so far. Of course with leopard issue is mostly hypothetical. I know that some disagree and it´s ok, it´s how things often are.
Exept the info from my post isn't only based on ''what I think'' or neither ''IF'' speculation as they also include results of long term researches made in 2 different biomes of Brazil stated by the people who work in the field themselves for many years in both Iguaçú and Refúgio Ecológico Caiman and not to mention the other areas (as stated by Joares May on the Puma case ) as these people travel the whole country seeking for captures and researches, so nothing better than they themselves confirm the fact that Pumas will seek smaller preys and will avoid direct encounter with Jaguars. The mutual respect could probably happen in Caatinga.
Indeed there's very little information on violent direct interspecific confrontation of these animals and the reason why we can already have an accurate idea just by the fact Pumas won't show up in areas jaguars are seen the most exept during certain times of the day because there are a larger, bulky, big headed cat roaming around in the same enviornment.
Pumas are powerful cats but most of places they coexist with jaguars, they are smaller than the jaguar.
In addition to that I am gonna drop a part of the PHD study by Leandro Silveira ( COMPARATIVE ECOLOGY AND CONSERVATION OF JAGUAR (PANTHERA ONCA) AND PUMA (PUMA CONCOLOR), IN THE CERRADO AND PANTANAL ) about the difference in habitat of the 2 species in PNE ( Parque Nacional das Emas ) area of Cerrado.
Here's the PNE map the red triangles are the Cerrado Jaguars tracks monitored and the black dots are the Cerrado Pumas tracks monitored between January 2001 and December 2002.
Figure 24
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The differences in habitat use between jaguars and pumas in the Emas National Park region (PNE) analyzed through radio-telemetry, reflect the distribution of individuals monitored (Figure 21 and 24). Cerrado Jaguars were rarely observed outside the boundaries of the PNE, while almost all individuals of Cerrado Pumas monitored at some point left the reserve, with only one exception (Figure 24). Thus, anthropized habitats were part of the landscape used by Pumas, much more than for jaguars.
The results from the use of habitats by Cerrado Jaguars in the PNE region, between January 2001 and December 2002, indicated that the niche of the species comprises basically two segments of areas: the eastern region of the Park formed by the valley that encompasses the springs on the right bank of the Jacuba River, leaving the Park, to the proximities of the mouth with the Rio Formoso and the headwaters of the Cabeceira Alta and Rio Formoso streams (Figures 24 and 25). The Pumas did not restrict their distribution and habitat use in the same way (Figure 24).
Despite the apparent uniformity of the habitat of Campo Sujo in the eastern region of the PNE, where the Cerrado jaguars were concentrated, it was observed that the individuals monitored used the flat areas of slate more in the nocturnal than in the diurnal period (Figure 26).''
I am pretty sure if the Cerrado Jaguars weren't occuping the PNE area on large scale within that period of time there would be way more Cerrado Pumas venturing into the PNE area.
I´ve tried to give quite clear hints about certain things which create often closely to ridiculous problems in these threads.
One is, that people corner themselves too strongly to "tiger corner", "lion corner", "jaguar corner", "leopard corner" or whatever. Then when there is something even slightly suggested, that the animal which is under observation isn´t perfect, starts debate in which misunderstandings happen even on purpose or because people are blinded by preferring too much one species.
Like now, one minor thing, can a leopard give a good fight to a jaguar sometimes, cause tons of "evidence" that no, not ever or not in any way, not possible... you get what I mean? Same time we have video evidence showing, that occasionally even tigers and lions back off from leopards. And some expert opinions, that fights could have heavy price for both species.
So, no-one here can convince for instance me, that a leopard couldn´t time to time give a very good fight to a jaguar too if such incident for some reason would happen. And same with pumas, they overlap in size and even when not, size difference isn´t always extreme.
So in species level, of course jaguars are bigger and more dominant, same naturally with tigers and lions, overall leopard is no match. But. But in some occasions smaller cat can give to a bigger one more than bigger one is willing to take and it can even back off. Why not even die later to some injuries caused by fight, I don´t see any reason why not in some occasions even though not usually. And some experts seem to think the same as I and many others.
So when we disagree about this minor and quite meaningless issue overall, it doesn´t mean, that disagreement would be about everything.
Then another point of view, it´s well known that sometimes big cats as all predators fail in hunting and get injuries and even succumb later to those wounds/internal injuries. So how come a big leopard or puma couldn´t cause injuries, when it´s well known, that many smaller animals time to time cause painful injuries to predators or even death.
But main point would be still, that people in these threads would learn to look closer what is said and think a moment why some other can think differently. It´s useless to debate about this issue really, I and some others see some things differently than for instance you and some things in same way. You can´t "win" this discussion, all relevant things are on the table and I have nothing to change to my previous postings, you didn´t provide any reason for me to do so, when I look at things based on my observations and things I´ve read and seen on videos etc.
Hopefully now it starts to be clear to all.
First of all, the main point of my posts wasn't about VS debate amongst leopard,puma, jaguar or if leopards and pumas will give a jaguar a good fight or not, it was about the interaction, size differences in same areas or in different biomes, territory preferences and the very few interactions between the 2 species reported so far.
Secondly, sure its not a competition for who wins a debate or who will lose, I don't wanna win anything afterall we all got different thoughts and opinions otherwise this discussion wouldn't even existed.
And lastly the main point wasn't to make you believe in me or to change your previous postings but to show the wild coexistence of these 2 cats in some biomes of Brazil that have been published and mentioned that in natural wild situations have been proven that the smaller cat will avoid the larger cat more often than not regardless if it can put up a good fight or not.
What is there to even debate?
Both of these cats share habitat and its the Jaguar who is dominate. A larger, more confident cat is obviously going to be the one who dictates how an encounter goes. The smaller cat certainly can defend itself but if the larger cat chooses to end it, they will. Whether they suffer injuries or not is moot, it will always depend on either their desire to kill the smaller cat or the smaller cats ability to escape.
Exept the info from my post isn't only based on ''what I think'' or neither ''IF'' speculation as they also include results of long term researches made in 2 different biomes of Brazil stated by the people who work in the field themselves for many years in both Iguaçú and Refúgio Ecológico Caiman and not to mention the other areas (as stated by Joares May on the Puma case ) as these people travel the whole country seeking for captures and researches, so nothing better than they themselves confirm the fact that Pumas will seek smaller preys and will avoid direct encounter with Jaguars. The mutual respect could probably happen in Caatinga.
Indeed there's very little information on violent direct interspecific confrontation of these animals and the reason why we can already have an accurate idea just by the fact Pumas won't show up in areas jaguars are seen the most exept during certain times of the day because there are a larger, bulky, big headed cat roaming around in the same enviornment.
Pumas are powerful cats but most of places they coexist with jaguars, they are smaller than the jaguar.
In addition to that I am gonna drop a part of the PHD study by Leandro Silveira ( COMPARATIVE ECOLOGY AND CONSERVATION OF JAGUAR (PANTHERA ONCA) AND PUMA (PUMA CONCOLOR), IN THE CERRADO AND PANTANAL ) about the difference in habitat of the 2 species in PNE ( Parque Nacional das Emas ) area of Cerrado.
Here's the PNE map the red triangles are the Cerrado Jaguars tracks monitored and the black dots are the Cerrado Pumas tracks monitored between January 2001 and December 2002.
Figure 24
*This image is copyright of its original author
''The differences in habitat use between jaguars and pumas in the Emas National Park region (PNE) analyzed through radio-telemetry, reflect the distribution of individuals monitored (Figure 21 and 24). Cerrado Jaguars were rarely observed outside the boundaries of the PNE, while almost all individuals of Cerrado Pumas monitored at some point left the reserve, with only one exception (Figure 24). Thus, anthropized habitats were part of the landscape used by Pumas, much more than for jaguars.
The results from the use of habitats by Cerrado Jaguars in the PNE region, between January 2001 and December 2002, indicated that the niche of the species comprises basically two segments of areas: the eastern region of the Park formed by the valley that encompasses the springs on the right bank of the Jacuba River, leaving the Park, to the proximities of the mouth with the Rio Formoso and the headwaters of the Cabeceira Alta and Rio Formoso streams (Figures 24 and 25). The Pumas did not restrict their distribution and habitat use in the same way (Figure 24).
Despite the apparent uniformity of the habitat of Campo Sujo in the eastern region of the PNE, where the Cerrado jaguars were concentrated, it was observed that the individuals monitored used the flat areas of slate more in the nocturnal than in the diurnal period (Figure 26).''
I am pretty sure if the Cerrado Jaguars weren't occuping the PNE area on large scale within that period of time there would be way more Cerrado Pumas venturing into the PNE area.
I´ve tried to give quite clear hints about certain things which create often closely to ridiculous problems in these threads.
One is, that people corner themselves too strongly to "tiger corner", "lion corner", "jaguar corner", "leopard corner" or whatever. Then when there is something even slightly suggested, that the animal which is under observation isn´t perfect, starts debate in which misunderstandings happen even on purpose or because people are blinded by preferring too much one species.
Like now, one minor thing, can a leopard give a good fight to a jaguar sometimes, cause tons of "evidence" that no, not ever or not in any way, not possible... you get what I mean? Same time we have video evidence showing, that occasionally even tigers and lions back off from leopards. And some expert opinions, that fights could have heavy price for both species.
So, no-one here can convince for instance me, that a leopard couldn´t time to time give a very good fight to a jaguar too if such incident for some reason would happen. And same with pumas, they overlap in size and even when not, size difference isn´t always extreme.
So in species level, of course jaguars are bigger and more dominant, same naturally with tigers and lions, overall leopard is no match. But. But in some occasions smaller cat can give to a bigger one more than bigger one is willing to take and it can even back off. Why not even die later to some injuries caused by fight, I don´t see any reason why not in some occasions even though not usually. And some experts seem to think the same as I and many others.
So when we disagree about this minor and quite meaningless issue overall, it doesn´t mean, that disagreement would be about everything.
Then another point of view, it´s well known that sometimes big cats as all predators fail in hunting and get injuries and even succumb later to those wounds/internal injuries. So how come a big leopard or puma couldn´t cause injuries, when it´s well known, that many smaller animals time to time cause painful injuries to predators or even death.
But main point would be still, that people in these threads would learn to look closer what is said and think a moment why some other can think differently. It´s useless to debate about this issue really, I and some others see some things differently than for instance you and some things in same way. You can´t "win" this discussion, all relevant things are on the table and I have nothing to change to my previous postings, you didn´t provide any reason for me to do so, when I look at things based on my observations and things I´ve read and seen on videos etc.
Hopefully now it starts to be clear to all.
First of all, the main point of my posts wasn't about VS debate amongst leopard,puma, jaguar or if leopards and pumas will give a jaguar a good fight or not, it was about the interaction, size differences in same areas or in different biomes, territory preferences and the very few interactions between the 2 species reported so far.
Secondly, sure its not a competition for who wins a debate or who will lose, I don't wanna win anything afterall we all got different thoughts and opinions otherwise this discussion wouldn't even existed.
And lastly the main point wasn't to make you believe in me or to change your previous postings but to show the wild coexistence of these 2 cats in some biomes of Brazil that have been published and mentioned that in natural wild situations have been proven that the smaller cat will avoid the larger cat more often than not regardless if it can put up a good fight or not.
As that one study I shared showed, pumas don't avoid jaguars in all areas. As different studies and postings show, there are some controversialities and different kind of opinions. And as usually in these situations, situation stays such after discussions too. What is proven to one can be not proven to another. Typical for issues like this in which different issues are mixed. I have been talking all the time about it, that leopards and pumas can give a good fight for jaguars if things escalate and it's what I believe.
@Balam @Dark Jaguar @Pckts @Shadow There is an exception to the rule, there was a fight between a jaguar and puma, which were of similar sizes, and the jaguar ran away, so let's end it there, that a cougar can beat a jaguar of equal or smaller size, but not a much larger jaguar (like in the Pantanal):
Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
