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Bone and muscle strength or density

India parvez Offline
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#1

Bone and muscle strength is the key to a versus fight. It is the primary factor that influences the victor. Let us discuss about muscle and bone density or indirectly their strength.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/Ann...kaya.shtml
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India parvez Offline
Tiger Maharshi
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#2

Grizzly bear,

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India parvez Offline
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#3

Various animals,

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/139/2/663/2987138
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India Vegeta San Offline
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(10-09-2018, 09:09 PM)parvez Wrote: Grizzly bear,

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Actually, "liarweb" is not a credible site. It just talks about "pit fights" and, etc... There's no scientific analysis is behind it. 
And there's no scientific analysis said Grizzly bears have denser bones than bigcats. 

Here's an study of Brown bear strength conducted by "national geographic"..

MSU researcher tests grizzly bear strength for National Geographic documentary

*This image is copyright of its original author

"One engineering professor, garnish with unusual projects.
One portable, field-ready dynamic analysis testing gizmo, custom-make before hand.
Two graduate students, motivated and talented for best results.
Four enormous grizzly bears, handle with care. 
One odd research request, preferably not too strange."

"Directions: Smear one end of portable, field-ready dynamic analysis testing gizmo with honey, jam and puréed fish heads. Add enormous grizzly bears one at a time. Allow bears to shake gizmo. Collect resulting data. Knead data with brains of professor and graduate students. Use computer to shape data into graphic model. Warm and serve, as ordered, to National Geographic. Sit back and enjoy upcoming documentary."

"That was the recipe in May for Jay Smith of Bellingham, Wash., and James Schmitt of Helena. Both are mechanical engineering master's degree candidates at Montana State University whose advisor, professor Doug Cairns, presented them with a brief aside from their thesis work."

"National Geographic Channel had called Cairns asking if he could measure a grizzly's strength relative to a human. The request didn't strike Cairns as odd and he immediately said yes."

"I get some pretty weird projects," said Cairns. "So weird has some pretty big bounds to me."

"Like that project to crush things with huge cement blocks. Another is his long-term work bending and breaking stuff for the military. And don't forget the remote-controlled airplane he and his students built to monitor wildfires. Maybe not weird, but different."

"In May, he and graduate student Smith went to the Grizzly Discovery Center in West Yellowstone with a National Geographic film crew. The Grizzly Discovery Center is home to eight captive grizzly bears that can be viewed by the public."

"Cairns, Smith and Schmitt had spent part of the last eight months working on a "field portable dynamical testing and analysis device" for a different project. It's a kitchen-drawer-sized assembly of equipment that measures how much something shakes or how much force something gets hits with."

"Cairns and Smith attached a sensor to a log to mimic a suspended bird feeder and then moved the sensor to the top of a tree. The bears swatted the log, shook the tree and data flowed. Since this was a test of relative strength of bears to humans, Cairns and Smith shook and swatted as well."

"They're pretty impressive creatures with good strength, agility and problem-solving abilities," Smith said. "They're patient with a problem. They wouldn't shake the tree as hard as they could right off the bat. They'd shake it, see how that worked, shake it a second time and so on. They behaved logically, like they were problem solving."

"At one point, Cairns wondered if the problem the bears were trying to solve was how to eat him."

"I had climbed a tree to place an instrument. When the bears were allowed back in the pen, one of them made a bee-line for the tree, sniffed it, then turned and looked straight at me," Cairns said. "It was amazing. That really sent chills down my spine."

"The team also tested what the bears could do to a 700-pound metal Dumpster."

"It was like a beach ball to them," Cairns said. "They could roll it over and over. It took a minimum of two people a concerted effort to tip it."

"After two days of testing, Cairns and Smith came back to MSU. In less than 24 hours, Schmitt assembled the data into a computer model that could illustrate how a bear shaking a tree compared to a human."

"Our conclusion was a grizzly bear is equal to 2.5 to 5 humans in strength. I'm certain if a bear were enraged it would be much, much higher," Cairns said. "We never did get them ticked off. We didn't want to."

"National Geographic plans to use the data and the footage for a National Geographic Explorer special on bears to air later this summer or fall."

"From a student's perspective," Smith said, "you never know what to expect working with Dr. Cairns."

Source: http://www.montana.edu/news/3827/msu-res...ocumentary

According to this analysis, we get a different results. Average Grizzly weighs 600lbs, while the average men weigh 180lbs. The bear is 3.3 times heavier than average men and was 2.5 to 5 times stronger. Which means it is 3.75 times stronger than human at average weights. But at parity (equal weights), the bear was 1.12 times stronger than average men...
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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#5

(10-09-2018, 09:09 PM)parvez Wrote: Grizzly bear,

*This image is copyright of its original author
Sources:

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/

A website devoted to the tiger... But a little bit contested, denyed. I let you discover why.
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India parvez Offline
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#6
( This post was last modified: 10-10-2018, 08:47 PM by parvez )


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.sciencealert.com/researchers...s-strength

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*This image is copyright of its original author
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India parvez Offline
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#7


*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/amp.lives...ution.html
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India parvez Offline
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#8

@Vegeta San i already posted that content in anatomy thread. Those are acaptive specimens. If wild, they can be much stronger. And if provoked, it could be even higher.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#9

(10-10-2018, 12:31 AM)Vegeta San Wrote:
(10-09-2018, 09:09 PM)parvez Wrote: Grizzly bear,

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Actually, "liarweb" is not a credible site. It just talks about "pit fights" and, etc... There's no scientific analysis is behind it. 
And there's no scientific analysis said Grizzly bears have denser bones than bigcats. 

Here's an study of Brown bear strength conducted by "national geographic"..

MSU researcher tests grizzly bear strength for National Geographic documentary

*This image is copyright of its original author

"One engineering professor, garnish with unusual projects.
One portable, field-ready dynamic analysis testing gizmo, custom-make before hand.
Two graduate students, motivated and talented for best results.
Four enormous grizzly bears, handle with care. 
One odd research request, preferably not too strange."

"Directions: Smear one end of portable, field-ready dynamic analysis testing gizmo with honey, jam and puréed fish heads. Add enormous grizzly bears one at a time. Allow bears to shake gizmo. Collect resulting data. Knead data with brains of professor and graduate students. Use computer to shape data into graphic model. Warm and serve, as ordered, to National Geographic. Sit back and enjoy upcoming documentary."

"That was the recipe in May for Jay Smith of Bellingham, Wash., and James Schmitt of Helena. Both are mechanical engineering master's degree candidates at Montana State University whose advisor, professor Doug Cairns, presented them with a brief aside from their thesis work."

"National Geographic Channel had called Cairns asking if he could measure a grizzly's strength relative to a human. The request didn't strike Cairns as odd and he immediately said yes."

"I get some pretty weird projects," said Cairns. "So weird has some pretty big bounds to me."

"Like that project to crush things with huge cement blocks. Another is his long-term work bending and breaking stuff for the military. And don't forget the remote-controlled airplane he and his students built to monitor wildfires. Maybe not weird, but different."

"In May, he and graduate student Smith went to the Grizzly Discovery Center in West Yellowstone with a National Geographic film crew. The Grizzly Discovery Center is home to eight captive grizzly bears that can be viewed by the public."

"Cairns, Smith and Schmitt had spent part of the last eight months working on a "field portable dynamical testing and analysis device" for a different project. It's a kitchen-drawer-sized assembly of equipment that measures how much something shakes or how much force something gets hits with."

"Cairns and Smith attached a sensor to a log to mimic a suspended bird feeder and then moved the sensor to the top of a tree. The bears swatted the log, shook the tree and data flowed. Since this was a test of relative strength of bears to humans, Cairns and Smith shook and swatted as well."

"They're pretty impressive creatures with good strength, agility and problem-solving abilities," Smith said. "They're patient with a problem. They wouldn't shake the tree as hard as they could right off the bat. They'd shake it, see how that worked, shake it a second time and so on. They behaved logically, like they were problem solving."

"At one point, Cairns wondered if the problem the bears were trying to solve was how to eat him."

"I had climbed a tree to place an instrument. When the bears were allowed back in the pen, one of them made a bee-line for the tree, sniffed it, then turned and looked straight at me," Cairns said. "It was amazing. That really sent chills down my spine."

"The team also tested what the bears could do to a 700-pound metal Dumpster."

"It was like a beach ball to them," Cairns said. "They could roll it over and over. It took a minimum of two people a concerted effort to tip it."

"After two days of testing, Cairns and Smith came back to MSU. In less than 24 hours, Schmitt assembled the data into a computer model that could illustrate how a bear shaking a tree compared to a human."

"Our conclusion was a grizzly bear is equal to 2.5 to 5 humans in strength. I'm certain if a bear were enraged it would be much, much higher," Cairns said. "We never did get them ticked off. We didn't want to."

"National Geographic plans to use the data and the footage for a National Geographic Explorer special on bears to air later this summer or fall."

"From a student's perspective," Smith said, "you never know what to expect working with Dr. Cairns."

Source: http://www.montana.edu/news/3827/msu-res...ocumentary

According to this analysis, we get a different results. Average Grizzly weighs 600lbs, while the average men weigh 180lbs. The bear is 3.3 times heavier than average men and was 2.5 to 5 times stronger. Which means it is 3.75 times stronger than human at average weights. But at parity (equal weights), the bear was 1.12 times stronger than average men...

The bears do look big in the pictures. But it would be useful to know how many pounds in total the bear would be able to pull. Maybe their calculations are wrong, but lions and tigers arent stronger at parity than an average men.
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India Vegeta San Offline
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#10

(10-11-2018, 12:11 PM)paul cooper Wrote: The bears do look big in the pictures. But it would be useful to know how many pounds in total the bear would be able to pull. Maybe their calculations are wrong, but lions and tigers arent stronger at parity than an average men.

Well, I don't think their calculations are wrong. Because it's a research not an expert opinion or assumption. 

There's no scientific study has been conducted for tiger strength. But I got these two quotes, looks matching.

"The tiger possesses tremendous strength and is capable of carrying off animals far larger and heavier then itself such as horses, cows and buffaloes. A tiger can transport a horse or a cow tens and even hundreds of meters from the place where it killed it, it being carried not dragged. Corbett tracked a tiger that carried a full-grown cow 4.0 miles (7.5km) away from the place of its kill. Another tiger dragged a killed bull 13.5 meters. The bull could not be moved by 13 men. A tigress was seen swimming across a river with a cow in her mouth. (Pocock). Once a tiger jumped into a pen, killed a calf, and catching it in its teeth, leaped back to rock situated 3.6 meters above the pens level. A tiger can carry a large wild boar in its teeth through dense rushes, jump onto rocks, and even climb a steep slope"...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?dq=tige...nt&f=false

Tigers are twelve times stronger than humans.
http://www.four-paws.us/projects/big-cat...ts-issues/

If this is the case. The average tiger is only three times heavier than average human. And then, at parity tiger is upto 4 times stronger than human...
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India parvez Offline
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#11

@paul cooper Tigers are stronger than men at parity. The smallest of Bengal tigers Sunderban tigers have traction power of 30 men. Means these tigers are atleast 10-15 times stronger at parity with men. I don't know about lions.
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United States brotherbear Offline
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#12

(10-11-2018, 05:15 PM)parvez Wrote: @paul cooper Tigers are stronger than men at parity. The smallest of Bengal tigers Sunderban tigers have traction power of 30 men. Means these tigers are atleast 10-15 times stronger at parity with men. I don't know about lions.

At size or weight parity, any big cat is stronger than an athletic man. Hardly a contest.
 > GRIZZLY ( Ursus arctos horribilis ) the AMERICAN BROWN BEAR <  
  
             
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India parvez Offline
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( This post was last modified: 10-11-2018, 09:07 PM by parvez )

I saw a video on YouTube about jaguar hunting a caiman. One of the persons witnessing the incident told he heard the noise of cracking of skull bone. The average force required to break the human skull at the weakest points is around 1100 pounds per square inch. Human skull is 4-15mm thick. Caiman skull should be surely around 1 to two inches thick. Considering the strength of their bones or density to be obviously more than humans, it will take atleast double force to fracture or break caiman skull. That is almost one tonne force. So, jaguar is capable of producing 2200 lbs force or one ton of force.  Cool
https://www.reference.com/science/much-f...54ecbfc95a
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India parvez Offline
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#14

As per wikipedia mammalian skeletal muscle density is 1.006gm/cc. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle
Not as impressive as i have thought. But in beasts it should be more higher IMHO.
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Switzerland Spalea Offline
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(10-12-2018, 09:14 PM)parvez Wrote: As per wikipedia mammalian skeletal muscle density is 1.006gm/cc. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle
Not as impressive as i have thought. But in beasts it should be more higher IMHO.

I think we're making an error about the density.

The density of the muscle is always the same whatever the animals we're talking to, whether it's for the tiger or an human being: equal to the water density and a smidge higher (here you say 0, 006). Thus, if we don't panic (by swallowing water into the lungs), we're able to float onto the water (tiger or men...).

The density is always specified without unity. The density is the ratio of any matter weight/ the same water volume weight. Thus no one unity. 1,006 gm/cc isn' t a density but a volume weight (a volumetric weight).

The difference between the tiger and the other animals, for exemple men, is that the tiger's muscles are or are able to be considerably much more tensed. And also because the tiger's limb cross-section is much more important than the man's arm cross-section. But their muscles density is always roughly, approximately 1,006.
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