BODY SIZE AND MASS OF NGORONGORO CRATER LIONS

[chaos]

(02-17-2015, 05:43 AM)'Pckts' Wrote:

(02-17-2015, 05:05 AM)'chaos' Wrote: And?...............My posts are based solely on logic as to why craters could be larger. I am not the only person who
consider these lions to be one of, if not, the largest lion subspecies. Nobody knows why they're larger. Perhaps its
due to the craters environment. I'm not a scientist and I've never been there. According to waveriders previous posts
in this thread, the 212 kg estimate has been accepted as an educated "estimate" by peer reviewed scientific paper. That
carries way more weight than your desperate attempts to discredit anything and everything I believe in or post. 

~~For the benefit of everybody the above on the 212 kg estimate is NOT a fact but a comment on an educated estimate suggested by a peer-reviewed scientific paper.
 
That makes for a larger cat don't ya think? Now whether these are genetically identical to Serengeti's? I could give two shiites. The simple fact it
obviously irks you, is your issue. I, along with many others believe craters are a larger lion subspecies. Kinda like you believe Kaz tigers are the
largest tiger sub-species without any actual proof. Now, if you agree, we'll continue to disagree. I'm on board.  


 

The only thing that "irks me" is your refusal of anybody who disagrees with your claim.
Like you stated yourself, the 212 kg is NOT a fact.

Peter writes
"Regarding Ngorogoro lions. In spite of many decades of research in many regions in Africa and in spite of countless tables with weights, only one Ngorogoro male was actually weighed. It was a young adult, who scaled 146 kg. Very different from the computed average for young adults in the page above (206 kg.). A disappointing result, but there you have it. 

Anything to add? Yes. The regression equation was debated on AVA. Apollyon contacted Packer. The conclusion they got to was the equation was inadequate. More? Yes. I saw a few documentaries in which lions were measured. I noticed that chest girths were not taken in the proper way. They only measured half of the girth, as this meant they didn't have to move the lion. I understand (a male lion is a heavy animal), but I wouldn't get to satisfactory. There's one more thing. Everything I have on wild lions suggests adult males outaverage adult females by about 60-70 kg. Let's assume the average for Ngorogoro females (127 kg.) was right and let's also assume that Ngorogoro lions are big animals. I propose to take 70 kg. as the average difference. That would result in 197 kg. at best. Different from 212 kg. Maybe the relation between chest girth and weight is different in lions, tigers and bears.  "

Amnon
" ...too simple. Lions are social and rely on numbers. More food should result in more lions (ofc in bigger size as well...but only to some extent). Thats why size differences between various lion populations are limited.

...and as far as I know its rather the size of prey (and not the amout of prey...that much) what increases the size of lions. "

Gaute says:
"The formula is NOT from Packer, and was not provided TO Packer also. He directly say that, this is the point, period."


Grizzly
"Yeah, they are not exactly the descendants of the Kruger lions, but they surely belong to the South African clade.

On the other hand, the Crater lions not only belong to the East African clade, they were also directly descended from the colonial Serengeti lions. "

etc.

Everybody says the same more or less, this topic is pointless to discuss any further with you. Ill stick to discussing it with people who interpret and present data.





 

 

There is no data on craters. Tom is not a crater lion. We have no official weights or measurements. Very similar to Kaz tigers.
The fact scientists "estimate" them at over 210 kgs for an average, speaks loud and clear "Yea they're big". Tom was from the
Ngorgora Conservation area, not the crater.  I'm leaning with the scientific peer reviewed paper as opposed to the AVA debate.
No brainer there. I'm happy to move on to greener pastures. Reply