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chaos · 02-15-2015, 08:19 PM

(02-13-2015, 10:48 PM)'Pckts' Wrote:
(02-13-2015, 06:54 PM)'chaos' Wrote: @Pockets - it's a well known fact both lion and tiger subspecies that dwell in prey rich regions are generally larger than their counterparts in prey challenged regions. Common sense.

You like to use the term "common sense" but you don't provide evidence on whether Crater is has more or less prey density or Compare other Tigers from areas with alleged different prey density.
Just so you know, the serengeti has 1000s of more animals than the crater as well as tons more different species available than the crater. Giraffes, Impala, herda beast etc. All don't exist in the crater, even warthog was only seen recently. And many other herbivores, as well. What the crater does have is a constant # of animals throughout the year, meaning, no migratory animals.
But that just means they have the same animals year round, not more #'s aka Prey Density.
The serengeti is one of the most prey abundant places around and the Prime territory holding prides will have access to all kinds of prey year round and a high variety.
And since there is only one verified weight of 146kg for a Male Lion (injured yes) but still not skinny by any means, it proves that the male at least is not the 212kg average claimed. Since all other averages are based off a faulty chest size and not weights they are far from verified. You certainly would not allow the weight of 272kg+ to be allowed if they were simply estimated off body length or chest size, would you?

@Waverider
In regards to Kaziranga tigers, you are right they have not been measured. But Assam Tigers have a few individuals who have been, and according to them, they have the largest skulls on average, and their body weight was in the 220kg range I believe. I don't know about what region in assam they were from, but Kaziranga is in assam. Lets also look at Eye Witness accounts saying that they are the largest tigers they have ever seen. Then lastly, prey density,
Kaziranga is the Only place in India with Rhino, Elephant, Water Buffalo and all the other species of prey in India for a tiger. It also has the highest Tiger Density as well, so using those proven facts, the only way a Tiger density that high is sustained, is plenty of prey, the habitat is lush, deep grass and tough treking. A animal must swim miles, hunt through elephant grass and deep wet marsh lands to make kills. All would contribute to growth in muscles and overall weight.
Lets compare these factors to the Crater,
No higher prey density than else where, terrain is similar to any where else, lion density is very low there, (growing recently) but still not higher than other areas, Coalitions are much more individuals meaning more mouth's to feed, lions as recently as 30 years ago came from the Serengeti. So its not like Kaziranga where they have had 100s of years of uninterrupted evolutionary time, they have only recently begun to live there again in substantial #s and its not like they could have adapted specific morphological traits in that time frame. So, by no means is 212kg an unheard of # for wild lions, but it certainly is not backed by evidence that those weights are the average for male lions in the crater. I have also seen no eye witness accounts saying they are any larger than any other Lions from elsewhere maybe somebody here would like to ask a few lion experts on FB?

"The 212 kg figure is an educated estimate, but just an estimate. Because it refers to an average weight of a sample it has more validity then if it would refer to any particular individual. Assuming it were correct, in the sample of N=6 individuals averaging 212 kg I would definitely expect a weight range of 200-225 kg as a minimum, more likely 195-230 kg as I conservatively predicted (actual prediction 195-243 kg likely optimistic for 6 individuals only).

I just remind that the sample of N=7 adult male tigers from Chitawan NP average 235 kg kg with a range of 200-261 kg"

Also the real average of Chitwan would be 200kg-272kg+ but thats a different discussion.

~~You like to use the term "common sense" but you don't provide evidence on whether Crater is has more or less prey density or Compare other Tigers from areas with alleged different prey density.
Just so you know, the serengeti has 1000s of more animals than the crater as well as tons more different species available than the crater. Giraffes, Impala, herda beast etc. All don't exist in the crater, even warthog was only seen recently. And many other herbivores, as well. What the crater does have is a constant # of animals throughout the year, meaning, no migratory animals.
But that just means they have the same animals year round, not more #'s aka Prey Density.
The serengeti is one of the most prey abundant places around and the Prime territory holding prides will have access to all kinds of prey year round and a high variety.
And since there is only one verified weight of 146kg for a Male Lion (injured yes) but still not skinny by any means, it proves that the male at least is not the 212kg average claimed. Since all other averages are based off a faulty chest size and not weights they are far from verified. You certainly would not allow the weight of 272kg+ to be allowed if they were simply estimated off body length or chest size, would you?

Spin it anyway you like. The fact is crater lions have ample food year round. Combined with other factors, that apparently makes for a larger lion.
Take that up with our creator. Like larger tigers sub species, I presume similar dynamics apply.

Take out all the unneccesary scientific over-complication, its quite easy to understand.

Pantherinae · 02-15-2015, 11:03 PM

hello and great thred.

I think crater lions might have such high average weight, looks as one of the most impressive populations of lions in Africa, on the 146 male lion wheiged in the crater, I've read the same people wheighing a 235 kg male aswell from the crater, and they said the sacle was a old or bad scale (can't remember), but said they had difficulties to belive it was a 90 kg wheight difference, I shall see if I can find it when I have time for it.

I see also a lot of discussions here about the serengeti and crater lions, but I just saw resently a large male lion from serengeti called blondie (?) wheing 230 kg, so both populations are impressive in therms of weight actually.

I'm with @Pckts on that the prey densety in seriengeti are higher, but that means more prey to choose from, and large prey are becomes less nessasery, and insted of hunting buffalo, they might think wildebeest, warthog, waterbuck and zebra, while crater lions have much buffalo and less other prey and might hunt buffalo more because they are forced to do so.
and you might can look at lions at duba plains which is by people said to be the biggest lions, they are captured on an island with buffalo as nearly the only prey ithem they have.

the biggest male lions these days are more impressive than they where 20-30 years ago IMO, from watching documentaries looking at pictures I look at modern lions today are very, very impressive. no data prooving it, but thats my own personal opinion!

Pantherinae · 02-15-2015, 11:12 PM

here is the male wheiged in serengeti (actually 235 kg, but a little unstable weight, and not adjusted): http://blog.africadreamsafaris.com/?p=18361

*This image is copyright of its original author

Amnon242 · 02-15-2015, 11:15 PM

(02-15-2015, 07:52 PM)'chaos' Wrote:
(02-14-2015, 12:51 AM)'Amnon242' Wrote: Young Tom. 146 kg crater lion.

http://www.panthera.org/node/3388

Young Tom is not a crater lion. He's actually from the Ngoragora conservation area.

Oh yes, I see...but anyway...I find the 212 kg average exaggerated - just because its so much higher than average for serengetti lions. But for the lack of reliable data this discussion is rather speculation...(again).

Amnon242 · 02-15-2015, 11:22 PM

Pantherinae: nice and huge lion. Anyway...the text denotes that the lion 1) is much bigger than most of other lions, 2) he was heavily gorged.

BTW yes I know that some lions can grow up to 260 kg...

Amnon242 · 02-15-2015, 11:27 PM

(02-15-2015, 11:03 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: I'm with @Pckts on that the prey densety in seriengeti are higher, but that means more prey to choose from, and large prey are becomes less nessasery, and insted of hunting buffalo, they might think wildebeest, warthog, waterbuck and zebra, while crater lions have much buffalo and less other prey and might hunt buffalo more because they are forced to do so.

Good point...this would make sense (if its true).

Amnon242 · 02-15-2015, 11:30 PM

(02-15-2015, 11:03 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: I see also a lot of discussions here about the serengeti and crater lions, but I just saw resently a large male lion from serengeti called blondie (?) wheing 230 kg, so both populations are impressive in therms of weight actually.

But the average for serengetti lions is around 180 kg (based on weighing).

Yes, 180 kg felid is definitely impressive.

Pantherinae · 02-15-2015, 11:44 PM

@Amnon242

no I did not say that all lions where that big, but mainly that lions in serengeti can grow huge aswell.

another example I can give. is the notch boys when I saw them they looked quite young and small, and smaller than their father notch, but resently I've been looking thru pictures and when they where adults they where much bigger compared to their father, ceaser in preticular is a massive lion, and you can look thru pictures from mara lions 30 years back and I do not think you will ever find a lion close to matching these boys. (jonathan scott said they where the most sucsessful males there he had known) and they are such a powerful coalition and they have learned to eat buffalo, eland and even hippos are a common prey and that's might be why they are another dimention compared to other lions in the mara.
and by my own personal opinion and view of it I think the average Masai Mara male lion is heavier and more stocky build than the average Serengeti male lion

so it might be like this:
big prey=big lions (because they have a lot of food, for long periodes, insted of other lions wich eat well then rest and starts hunting again, lions which kills big can eat, rest, eat, rest and that goes on and on)

Amnon242 · 02-16-2015, 02:11 AM

(02-15-2015, 11:44 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @Amnon242

no I did not say that all lions where that big, but mainly that lions in serengeti can grow huge aswell.

Again: the average for serengeti lions is around 180 kg. There is quite a lot of lions in Serngeti, so its no surprise that there can be found males who are over 200 kg. I think no one here would contest the fact that some lions (even those from Serengeti) can grow to these sizes. BTW you posted picture of 235 kg (probably gorged) lion, but the text says that this lion is an exception, not the norm.

BTW probably biggest (weighted) lion group are kruger lions. And these lions are around 188 kg. Alleged 212 kg average for crater lions would mean that these lions are substantially larger than the biggest (?) weighted lion group. And from various sources we know that differencis between various groups of east and south african lions are quite small (but you have to compare groups of this subspecies, not east/south african lions and indian/west african lions who are different subspecies).

Anyway: its not impossible that crater lions are really that big. The reason for this could be that they prey on buffalos more than other lions (as you stated) or that this small group (basically they are one family...as far as i know) are descendants of particularly huge lion.

GrizzlyClaws · 02-16-2015, 03:18 AM

The Crater lions are just the bulked up version of the Serengeti lions.

Normally, the Kruger lions should produce the largest measurement of the skulls, also the weight.

However, since the Crater lions live in the environment with an abundant prey base to support a such small lion population, so maybe it could be a bit exceptional. Anway, we just don't know the exact average for the Crater lions, and we will see if there is more coming evidence to support this popular theory about the Crater lions being the largest lions.

chaos · 02-16-2015, 03:28 AM

~~The Crater lions are just the bulked up version of the Serengeti lions.

I agree.

Pantherinae · 02-16-2015, 03:29 AM

even though the Crater lions are big, I think the male lions in the Okavango delta( espessialy duba plains) are bigger than crater lions, lionesses there are described as being almost as big as male lions elswhere in africa, and still the males are massive in comparison!

Pantherinae · 02-16-2015, 03:33 AM

let's just all agree on that this is an impressive animal!

GrizzlyClaws · 02-16-2015, 03:33 AM

(02-16-2015, 03:29 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: even though the Crater lions are big, I think the male lions in the Okavango delta( espessialy duba plains) are bigger than crater lions, lionesses there are described as being almost as big as male lions elswhere in africa, and still the males are massive in comparison!

These lions are the bulked up version of the Kruger lions, that's why it is bigger than the bulked up version of the Serengeti lions.

Pantherinae · 02-16-2015, 03:42 AM

(02-16-2015, 03:33 AM)'GrizzlyClaws' Wrote:
(02-16-2015, 03:29 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: even though the Crater lions are big, I think the male lions in the Okavango delta( espessialy duba plains) are bigger than crater lions, lionesses there are described as being almost as big as male lions elswhere in africa, and still the males are massive in comparison!

These lions are the bulked up version of the Kruger lions, that's why it is bigger than the bulked up version of the Serengeti lions.

I do not compleatly agree, while serengeti lions and crater lions live almost next door to eachother, and lives the same terrain Kurger lions and okavango lions are quite different in apparence, but you are right that lions in okavango probably are closly related to those from south africa, but all my years of watching lions, only on south africa lions appare different from eachother, like from phinda, shamwari to Kruger these lions looks different. that might be because the terrain is very differnt, and in Okavango the terrain is as we know very spessial.

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