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Bears of the Pleistocene

India brotherbear Offline
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#1
( This post was last modified: 10-25-2014, 08:07 PM by brotherbear )

http://markgelbart.wordpress.com/2011/03...h-america/ 
 
I am not going to copy and paste this, but if anyone else here finds it interesting, please feel free to do so. I am interested in bear evolution and, as my "online moniker" implies, I am mostly interested in brown bear evolution. I find it difficult to find information of modern animals during prehistoric times, as every book I read focuses on the extinct species. Also, any good books on this topic is appreciated, but please remember that my education level is a G.E.D. that I earned when I was a 30 year old kid.
 I'm not sure if this site might be useful or not: http://zmmu.msu.ru/rjt/articles/article....ages=71-75

 
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GuateGojira Offline
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#2

Hi Brotherbear. I have the entire section on bear evolution in the great book "Great Bear Almanac" of 1993. They are 12 pages, so I will try to put them in a two pages image, so there will be six in total. It is now a little outdated, but is very usefull, specially for a bear-lover. Await my next post tonight.

Greetings. [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

 
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India brotherbear Offline
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#3

The Great Bear Almanac by Gary Brown. Ursus arctos: The brown bear derived from Etruscus, and along the same line that produced cave bears. They evolved ( recently ) in the open spaces, lived mostly in non-forest or woodland areas and, not being a forest animal, had to stand and fight for their territory, food, and cubs. Spread widely across the Pleistocene landscape, with the earliest bears living in China, the brown bear succeeded Arctodus simus over much of its range.
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GuateGojira Offline
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#4

Sorry for the delay guys, but I have not much time. As I was unable to post the images of the book "Great Bear Almanac" of Gary Brown (1993), I attach you the scan of the pages in the book.

Read it an enjoy the data. [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

 

 

Attached Files
.pdf   Bear Evolution_1993.pdf (Size: 1.59 MB / Downloads: 23)
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India brotherbear Offline
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#5

The Great Bear Almanac is very informative. As for the ancestry of the brown bear, it gives the basics. I am seeking details such as what is known about the size and habbits of Pleistocene brown bears. There was mega-fauna; lots of meat on the hoof and lush vegeation. I would think that brown bears may have been typically in the same size-range as the giant cave bears in all but remote locations. Any fossil evidence of this?
I can easily find information on extinct species such as the short-faced bears and cave bears, but it's difficult to find info on the species that survived regarding their lives in the prehistoric past.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#6

It appears to me that there were both tigers and brown bears in China during the Pleistocene where the brown bears are thought to have originated. Could it be that the tiger and the brown bear are ancient enemies from the beginning ?
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#7
( This post was last modified: 08-02-2020, 07:12 AM by peter )

brotherbear\ dateline='\'1418466976' Wrote: It appears to me that there were both tigers and brown bears in China during the Pleistocene where the brown bears are thought to have originated. Could it be that the tiger and the brown bear are ancient enemies from the beginning ?  

It's speculation all the way, but if what I saw in captive animals is typical for bears and tigers in Russia I would say yes. Many trainers would agree, I think. There's much more animosity between these two than between tigers and other big cats.   

John Vaillant wrote a great book about a male Amur tiger who got into trouble with a hunter. The hunter took the animal he had killed and shot the owner, who was wounded. This made it personal. The tiger responded by starting a psychological war. The hunter was affected. When he, mentally, was nearly done for (noticed by many), the tiger went to his house. The hunter must have seen him, as he wasn't to be missed. Nobody knows why he came out of his cabin, but he did. The tiger attacked, killed and ate him completely. The book is about the incident, the story behind it and the hunt. This happened in the nineties of the last century.

Vaillant talked to locals and those who hunted the tiger after he had killed and eaten a second man. Adult male Amur tigers are quite something, Vaillant concluded. True survivors. They will yield to a larger force, but anything within reach will have to answer for actions directed against the tiger sooner or later. The things he wrote about tigers and bears, in my opinion, underline the animosity many noticed between both animals. As Kerley said, you never know in tigers and bears. Anything is possible.

Vaillant's book is a real good one and I read many. I asked Miquelle about it. He agreed: a great book. It's in every internet bookstore and shipping costs are limited. Good books on animals and humans usually don't come cheap. This one is. My advice is to buy it when you can.

You may not like what you read on bears and tigers, but Vailliant only talked to those 'in the know'. An adult wild male Amur tiger will not confront a large bear, but anything within his reach is vulnarable. As 'large' in bears always is subject to season and shape, it isn't easy to get into details. Same for tigers, by the way. Those who hunted the tiger said he was big. They thought he must have been close to 500 pounds after a large meal, but he was nearly starved when they finally got to him. It was a very close call even then.

A male bear of 700 pounds and over definitely is out of reach, but when he is a professional extortioner who targets one male tiger in particular, chances are the tiger will remember and act when the time has arrived. When that happens, anything is possible. I know male bears do not hunt male bears, but who said anything on hunting? My guess is they meet and talk every now and then. These 'meetings' no doubt often end in dispersal, but often isn't always. Based on what I saw myself in a rescue centre and a zoo, I think an adult tiger wouldn't be bothered by a difference in size when emotions have grown to 700 pounds.

I don't think a tiger would go for the kill. My guess is he would try to make his point clear. At times at his peril and at times not. Corbett described what he heard when a professional extortioner and a big male tiger met in Kumaon. They fought for a few minutes and the engagement ended with the tiger running, closely followed by the bear, who had murder in his mind. Corbett couldn't get to the tiger, but he shot the bear. It was the fattest he had ever seen and he must have seen many in Kumaon. The bear was scalped to the bone and his nose was all but gone. It wouldn't have mattered to an animal like a bear, but the tiger did it anyhow. Then he left. When Corbett was examining the bear, he saw the tiger, to his amazement, returning to his cow.

So what really happened over there? Did the bear win the fight? Or, as Corbett thought, the tiger? I think both scored a point. The bear said he would take it all at all costs, even if his opponent was a large male tiger. The tiger said not after this. Than he ran, only to return when the bear was killed. Meaning he saw what had happened. Also meaning he wasn't prepared to go all the way. Why would he, in Kumaon? But in Russia, conditions are different. I definitely believe the reports on male tigers not hunting male bears, but I do not buy the opinion of authorities on bears winning on points or the mutual avoidance assumption. If tigers would allow for professional extortionists all the time, they would face big problems in a region with few large prey animals.  

Are large bears really immune, as many think? Are they really not bothered by injuries? If so, why is there, apart from a few incidents, no proof of male tigers consistently displaced by male bears then in nearly a quarter of a century of research? I do not doubt it happens every now and then, but why is it the brown bears I saw (large males and I mean large) where visibly very nervous when they were threatened by captive Amur tigers? The tigers couldn't see the bear, but they knew he was there. The bear was about 50 yards away, maybe a bit more. The tigers were standing on their hind legs staring at his cage wagon. They never roared, but I sensed the sounds they produced. I had never heard those sounds before and I know a bit about tigers. I was standing right between them and I could have sweared I felt something going from the tigers to the bear. It was crowded when it happened, with television crew close by (no joke), but nobody saw anything. Nobody apart from the cage hand. He was afraid and didn't want to talk. So was the bear, as his droppings showed.

I do not doubt Ursus arctos lasiotus, used to tigers, is a fierce animal, more dangerous than an average tiger. Bears are much feared over there. I do not doubt they are able to compete with tigers and I do not doubt they win fights every now and then. But I would never make a bet and I never saw something similar for animosity. And that's all there is to say about it.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#8
( This post was last modified: 12-19-2014, 07:01 AM by brotherbear )

That goes along with the "Predator World" incident, where a grizzly escaped his enclosure but rather than run off away from the zoo, he followed his nose straight to the tiger enclosure where he killed a tigress.
 
~http://bigcatrescue.org/missouri-tigers/    A day later, three tigers critically injured a 16-year old boy at Predator World near Branson. The teenage employee had entered the tiger enclosure to take a picture.
 That wasn’t the first problem at Predator World. A 2007 U.S. Department of Agriculture report noted that a grizzly bear previously had escaped its enclosure and killed a tiger.
 The Wesa-A-Geh-Ya operation is even more worrisome. It is home to 44 tigers, 11 lions, seven Arctic wolves and other exotic animals, most of them kept in chain-link cages. In 2003, the operation surrendered its USDA license to exhibit the animals after a USDA investigation into the lack of medical treatment for a sick lion and a bear. The operation’s owners also have been cited for failing to lock cages properly.
 
By the way, what is the title of Vaillant's book?

 
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Netherlands peter Offline
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#9
( This post was last modified: 12-19-2014, 08:24 AM by peter )

The Tiger.
 
Today, I posted a speech I recently saw on youtube. It's interesting. The link is in the tiger extinction thread, because that's the place where it belongs.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#10
( This post was last modified: 12-20-2014, 05:02 PM by brotherbear )

http://www.askabiologist.org.uk/answers/...508#p26508
 
~sorry but no-one seems to know the answer to your question.
 
~http://grizzly.yuku.com/forums/66#.VA17X010zIU
 

 
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India brotherbear Offline
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#11
( This post was last modified: 12-21-2014, 03:35 PM by brotherbear )

http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs/rmrs_p067/r...68_471.pdf
 
This is for Peter or GuateGojira or others who know how to read it.
 
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India brotherbear Offline
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#12
( This post was last modified: 03-08-2017, 03:26 PM by brotherbear )

I am reading many conflicting reports on the size range of both Arctodus simus and Arctotheium angustidens, and their approximate average weights. These reports vary by hundreds or even thousands of pounds ( or kilograms ).
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India brotherbear Offline
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#13
( This post was last modified: 01-13-2015, 01:39 PM by brotherbear )

I have read that Indarctos, an ancient bear has been estimated at 3,000 kg. No, I do not believe this. But, I am curious. Was this ancient bear within the size range of the short-faced bears?
 

 

 

 
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United States tigerluver Offline
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#14

Never read of Andarctos, could you direct me to a source? There's Indarctos, which was estimated at 244 kg by dentitions.
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India brotherbear Offline
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#15

Sorry Tigerlover; my mistake. I misspelled Indarctos.
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