Bear Strength

[Pckts]

(11-21-2019, 02:26 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 01:50 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 01:20 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-21-2019, 12:23 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-20-2019, 09:29 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(11-20-2019, 09:08 PM)Pckts Wrote: Last I'm going to say on this, you've never seen 13 men drag anything like a Gaur or Buffalo so you dont know what that would look like.

The Bear flipped a Bison, it grabbed it by the base of the neck raising the head into the air, the Bison was never "lifted off the ground" then the Bison was rolled over.

And there are almost no videos of Tigers dragging Gaur or Water Buffalo, in fact, that one I posted is probably the first of it's kind to be filmed from what I can recall. I'm well aware of what is on youtube and many other sources, that's not something you see often and almost no videos are in circulation except for a very limited #.

Well, as I wrote I was impressed by it, that while the bear flipped that bison it also lifted a lot of that carcass off the ground and I have never seen any video footage showing some other predator to do it so. If you know some such clip I am more than happy to see it. Until that for me this video is the most impressive I´ve seen so far.

And as I wrote, when I have seen tigers and lions to struggle with smaller carcasses, I don´t take seriously claims about them dragging carcasses while 13 men are unable to do the same. If I see something even closely to such, I do reconsider my opinion, but not a moment sooner. So in this there is no need to debate really. I don´t care if other people believe something like that, I just can´t. First I should really see some tiger to drag a very big carcass. For me that contradiction is too big now, no matter what.

I'm curious as to how much you actually think a man can drag and what do you think 13 average men could drag successfully through the Jungle or Savanah Terrain?

We used to Chain Drag a 450lb chain and most new comers couldn't even lift a link or two off the ground, let alone drag it any distance and this was on flat concrete with no resistance, compare that to a 1000kg dead carcass being dragged through high grass or dense jungle, it's not even in the same realm.  Considering most men aren't nearly as strong, you're really talking about Men who can lift between 130-170lbs which is about the average,  "average 198 pound male can lift 155 pounds even without training," not to mention Indian men aren't that large from what I've seen. 


This is me dragging the chain I'm talking about
and I'm 6'5'' and 250lbs, 

*This image is copyright of its original author

not your average sized man which is 5'9'' and even shorter in India, which is why I'm not sure why you key in to the 13 men claim when I doubt you've had much experience in that field to make that kind of assumption.

Fair question and I do know, that this is a bit complicated thing. It´s the same thing as when talking about domestic cows for instance. Some species can be like 200-300 kg, while in the country I live in cows are often 500-600 kg. Of course when there is said, that 13 men, my first image is 13 men around 80-100 kg. I do know, that it can be very different in the case, what (was it Corbett) has described from the past. 

Unlike you think, I have quite a lot of experience lifting and dragging things, also carcasses. That´s why I am very critical to some claims. Also it´s good to criticize some things, because many people really don´t know certain differences and then they start to imagine tigers able to drag things, which 13.... how to say this, well 13 men who work physically couldn´t and that is exaggeration. If we talk about quite small men, that is of course different thing and that would be only explanation I can imagine how that case could be valid, especially if they haven´t had rope to use, which makes it quite impossible to utilize full strength of all men dragging. Of course if there are 13 men x 50 kg=650 kg that is different thing if 13 men x 80 kg= 1040 kg or as it would be  here most probably in countryside 13 x 90 kg= 1170 kg...

So yes, it´s possible, that 13 men couldn´t move some carcass and tiger could, depending on conditions and terrain. Then again, as I have mentioned earlier, I have with my friend dragged a moose carcass around 400-500 kg on tarmac and it was easy. That fur had practically no friction against tarmac so it was only a bit force to get it moving and then it was really easy to drag it off the road and short distance on grass. In the woods it would have been different thing naturally.

Here one video showing how moose carcass is dragged in the woods, these animals are usually 400-600 kg, maybe some biggest 650 kg. Five men in this one, so I think that relatively easy terrain and not too long distance to drag it. But as the video shows, not too easy terrain either, there is often a lot of cursing too involved, especially when someone stumbles.

These carcasses have to be dragged many times hundreds of meters and even some kilometers. When longer distances and big carcasses, there can be 10 men dragging moose to the place where it can be lifted to the trailer. 

Main thing here is, that I don´t see that story from Corbett as something extraordinary show of strength of a tiger even if true. Tigers are of course very strong animals. It´s more about putting these things in some reasonable context so, that people understand what we are talking about. I think, that a tiger might be able to drag a carcass demanding 3-5 men (80-100kg, no need to be weight lifter, but working physically, so some muscle even if some belly too). 

If I remember right, gaur of that story was said to have been approximately 1700 lbs or 770 kg. And it was said, that tiger dragged it 15 yards or so? I have no trouble seeing a tiger dragging that weight for short distance like 15 yards if terrain isn´t worst possible. But if 13 men can´t do the same, then there has to be something explaining it. Size of the men, no rope to use etc.

Good video but lets be critical here.
The men in front have a harness which is a huge help and I doubt that Moose which looks fairly small is 400-600kg
Here's a 660lb *299kg* Moose for reference and this one looks a good amount larger than the moose in the Video

And if 5 good sized men with a Harness need a break while moving that animal, we can imagine what an animal 3 times the weight would take for men with no harness who are much smaller.

This is what a 700lb moose looks like without heart/lungs

Imagine what an animal 2.5-3 times the size of that moose would look like on the ground, it's a completely different story.

That was only one video with one random moose. Every year thousands and thousands are hunted and dragged shorter or longer distances. And as I wrote, rope is a huge help, without rope(s) it´s quite impossible to utilize all strength from different people. 300 kg or 500 kg or 600 kg, all are dragged out of the woods and often from places, that only way to do that is to tie ropes and then men pull and drag it out of there. I have been there.

I wrote already, that if 13 small men and no rope etc. then they might not be able to move 770 kg carcass. But put there some men from countryside here and some rope and you will see how 770 kg moves, no need to have 13 men or 10 men. Easy terrain and a few men, difficult terrain and some more. Friction between fur and ground is naturally a very big factor. Weight alone isn´t the problem. 770 kg is easy to move if low friction and a few men, and very difficult if for some reason friction is high.

No moose will be as large as a bull Gaur and I'm not sure where the 770kg number comes from but it's obvious that's an estimate and regardless of that, any extenuating circumstances like *ropes, harnesses, easy terrain, tarps, size of the men, etc* all have to be thrown out the window since the only thing noted is that 13 grown men couldn't move the Gaur. 
While I agree that 13 men with rope and beneficial terrain should have little issue moving even a large Bull Gaur it wasn't about that. It was about the Bear and Bison and what you saw compared to what I saw then spiraled to to this as many debates tend to do. Reply