Bear Anatomy

[brotherbear]

Panther - Exactly what is your agenda? 
 
More data needed, but I would estimate for average full-grown mature male Kodiak bear: 
 
Spring - 800 pounds.
Summer - 900 to 1000 pounds.
Autumn - 1100 to 1200 pounds. Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 11:48 AM)brotherbear Wrote: Panther - Exactly what is your agenda? 
 
More data needed, but I would estimate for average full-grown mature male Kodiak bear: 
 
Spring - 800 pounds.
Summer - 900 to 1000 pounds.
Autumn - 1100 to 1200 pounds.

My agenda is nothing but to get rid of over&under estimations of Kodiak bear averages. This is not a data I cherry picked or something, this data is agreed on whole Carnivora.

Just a few days ago i met few people on quora giving false over estimations of Kodiak bear averages. No one got a back up. 

This forum is one of best forum about bear information. Yet there's no sufficient data on kodiaK bear average weight.

Also 900, 1000,1200lbs are overestimations for a average adult male.

Ok, let's assume 800lbs average for kodiak bear based on my first chart and your chart. The bear without stomach content is likely be 710lbs or around it... Reply

[Shadow]

(12-10-2018, 09:48 AM)Panther Wrote:

(12-10-2018, 07:03 AM)Shadow Wrote: To make this clear. I don´t test or care about your patience. And I haven´t been here on this topic a week. I just wanted to know, that what is the point here in recent discussion what happened between you and brotherbear because I wasn´t quite sure what you wanted to point out. So I asked about it until I got some idea.

I can only suggest you to read the previous replies. There you got the answer.
Calling my data "old", "unreliable" without proving otherwise just because you are not agreeing with that is called testing patience of me. 

Quote:I know, that those charts are from different researches, but those charts are also somewhat problematic to make too big conclusions.They give a reason to ask questions, but then again not giving solid answers. For instance in one chart is given bigger average weight to bears at Alaskan peninsula area (specimens started from 3 years older bears than Kodiaks compared, detail which isn´t meaningless), but then again in biggest individuals Kodiak bear was 169 kg heavier, that´s about 372 lbs in favor of Kodiak bear. Quite interesting. Then again weights in that chart concerning Kodiaks seemed to be from year 1969 and what comes to Alaska peninsula from years 1976 and 1980. And it was same thing in females, biggest individual was Kodiak.

I don't know the issue with the years. But the average of Alaska peninsula Brown bears in this chart is based on just 5 specimens. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Given an average of 389kgs while the max is just being 442kgs (a mere 50kgs difference) is not accurate I say.

If more bears weighed, then the value would be much less than that. 

Also it's discussed here on this site that Alaska peninsula Brown bears are being larger on average than kodiaK bears.

Quote:I´m sorry but even though information is there, it doesn´t look like information from which could be made too big conclusions to any direction.

It is, but you're not in a condition to agree with that. It's ok.
 

Quote:Why I give criticism to for instance comparison made about 6+ years bears compared to 9+ years old bears... There is no information how many Kodiaks were 6-9 years old on that chart. That combined to information how male Kodiak bears grow (Males continue to grow, gaining approximately 100 lbs. (45.45 kg) per year until they are eight to ten years old and weigh 500 to 1000 lbs. (227.27 – 454.54 kg)) leaves there quite big possibility to have twisted information and comparison.

The average for 9+ year old bears is just based on 5 specimens, along with them being prime males compared to the average adult (6+ year) Kodiak bears. 

Also 6+ means more than 6. So don't count it from 6 but 7. Those 10 attained the maximum of 611kgs, I don't think they're all young adults. 

Also I strongly disagree with that chart, I guess the first chart of 700lbs sounds accurate.

Quote:And what comes to males, there were only 5 from Alaskan peninsula and only 10 from Kodiak in chart giving to Kodiaks (6+) average weight of 300 kg and to bears from Alaskan peninsula (9+) average weight of 389 kg. So there is possibility, that for instance 6-7 Kodiaks were only 6 years old. If assuming, that 5 were 6 years old and 3 were 7 years old, we should add to mentioned total weight (3000 kg) 954,45 kg and suddenly comparable average weight of these Kodiak bears would be 395,5 kg... assuming, that growing normally. This is of course now speculation, but point is that those charts leave a lot of room for it. So little numbers of specimens there, that quite impossible to make big conclusion in any case.

How could it be, when it stated the individuals in the chart are 6+ year old? 6+ means more than 6, so count from 7. 
Also the difference between average and maximum of those 5 Alaska peninsula Brown Bears is very minimal. It's clearly not accurate, and based on prime specimens. 
Sorry, your calculation is wrong.

Quote:Of course those charts open up a good reason to look closer and make questions, but too many problems there to talk about real average weights. At least I don´t buy it yet if nothing more to back up such claim. Nothing personal, just how I see it.

You're using very large words that surpassing the words of peter, Guategojira, and tigerluver,etc.. 

Please don't make it heated discussion. I answered each of your questions. I guess you can understand the logic behind those conclusions...

My calculations are ok and meant only to show why statistics can be questionable, but discussing with you is just waste of time :) Here are now postings from both of us for everyone to read if interested. I leave it there. You can freely believe whatever you want to. Have a nice day there!! Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 12:20 PM)Shadow Wrote: My calculations are ok and meant only to show why statistics can be questionable, but discussing with you is just waste of time :) Here are now postings from both of us for everyone to read if interested. I leave it there. You can freely believe whatever you want to. Have a nice day there!!

Not at all actually. I explained your questions but you repeated the same.

As for...
"discussing with you is just waste of time :)"?
I already told the same for you in the beginning. It took more than a weak for us last time, which directly means discussing with you is really waste of time. Please don't project your own traits on me. 

I'm not here to believe what I wanted. If so, I should've stayed in home. 
Don't get me wrong, let's leave it here... Reply

[Rishi]

(12-10-2018, 12:03 PM)Panther Wrote: This is not a data I cherry picked or something, this data is agreed on whole Carnivora....

...Ok, let's assume 800lbs average for kodiak bear based on my first chart and your chart. The bear without stomach content is likely be 710lbs or around it.

And people of the whole world once agreed that earth is flat...

This is not a negotiation. The reality can be different from what you "agree upon". Although i find your numbers more believable, both you & @brotherbear are estimating based on limited information.

@Shadow is right. Just present whatever you have for the readers. Don't draw conclusions on data that is not proven to be absolute.

(12-10-2018, 12:33 PM)paul cooper Wrote: Why is vegeta san still here?

IPs don't match, even if it's him. In future, just report the profiles instead. Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 12:48 PM)Rishi Wrote: And people once agreed on whole world that earth is flat...

This is not a negotiation. The reality can be different from what you "agree upon". Although i find your numbers more believable, both you & @brotherbear are estimating based on limited information.

@Shadow is right. Just present whatever you have for the readers. Don't draw conclusions on data that is not unanimously agreed upon.

Yeah I mentioned people agreed that, because even Warsaw is active there, has no counter to it..

Thanks for that.. Reply

[brotherbear]

Panther says: My agenda is nothing but to get rid of over&under estimations of Kodiak bear averages. This is not a data I cherry picked or something, this data is agreed on whole Carnivora. 
 
No one here is cherry picking. No matter to me what Carnivora agrees on. I still see nothing other than random estimations. No real data. Inland grizzly bears in Montana occasionally reach 900 pounds ( 408 kg ). A full-grown Kodiak bear weighing 700 pounds is a small Kodiak boar. Yes, just my opinion which is exactly what you are posting - opinions. 
I have been searching for biological study charts for years now with no success; with sex and age groups listed. The one I found has 8 to 9 years old 835 pounds. But Kodiak bears reach larger sizes beyond 8 and 9 years old. A 15 year old brown bear is heavier than an 8 year old. So, we really have no valuable data as yet. Only our own ideas and opinions.  Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 01:44 PM)brotherbear Wrote: No one here is cherry picking. No matter to me what Carnivora agrees on. I still see nothing other than random estimations. No real data. Inland grizzly bears in Montana occasionally reach 900 pounds ( 408 kg ). A full-grown Kodiak bear weighing 700 pounds is a small Kodiak boar. Yes, just my opinion which is exactly what you are posting - opinions. 
I have been searching for biological study charts for years now with no success; with sex and age groups listed. The one I found has 8 to 9 years old 835 pounds. But Kodiak bears reach larger sizes beyond 8 and 9 years old. A 15 year old brown bear is heavier than an 8 year old. So, we really have no valuable data as yet. Only our own ideas and opinions. 

Sorry, I didn't said you are cherry picking. But I heard it from you or someone that 9 year old is prime of brown bears. 

Inland grizzlies won't average 900lbs. I'm here talking about average weights. I have no doubt that Kodiak bears large males reach 1500lbs occasionally. All I'm talking about is average weight for adult male. 

One of the study I posted may be not accurate. But this chart is close to accurate..

*This image is copyright of its original author

I disagree with your chart because it based on Just 5 specimens. 

Well let's take the middle value of both averages from those charts. 700 - 835lbs = 800lbs. 
Why it's that hard, this is average not maximum. I exceptionally large male kodiaK bear can easily reach 1500lbs, without a doubt. 

A 15 old is very large adult. I need your opinion @brotherbear. I'm just trying to pull this off in a friendly way... Reply

[brotherbear]

The chart you present shows no age classes. So, we are left with our personal ideas and opinions.   
 
And when did I say that inland grizzlies average 900 pounds? Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 02:10 PM)brotherbear Wrote: The chart you present shows no age classes. So, we are left with our personal ideas and opinions.   
 
And when did I say that inland grizzlies average 900 pounds?

Right but it's pretty simple to understand that the 700lbs chart is based on bigger and older individuals than the chart i posted before giving 300kgs average for Kodiak males. Which based on 6+ year old individuals, means it starts from 7 or 8. 


I didn't said you said they average 900lbs, I'm making it clear that I'm talking about averages but not maximum weights... Reply

[brotherbear]

Here is a chart made for Yellowstone grizzlies. When you average 5 year olds and up, you get - 209.6 kg ( 462 pounds ). When you average 9 years old and up, you get 221.76 kg ( 487 pounds ). 
                       

*This image is copyright of its original author

Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 02:42 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Here is a chart made for Yellowstone grizzlies. When you average 5 year olds and up, you get - 209.6 kg ( 462 pounds ). When you average 9 years old and up, you get 221.76 kg ( 487 pounds ). 

I know right! Neither of my charts had 5 year old individuals.

I don't really understand what is the point behind posting that chart... Reply

[brotherbear]

(12-10-2018, 02:47 PM)Panther Wrote:

(12-10-2018, 02:42 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Here is a chart made for Yellowstone grizzlies. When you average 5 year olds and up, you get - 209.6 kg ( 462 pounds ). When you average 9 years old and up, you get 221.76 kg ( 487 pounds ). 

I know right! Neither of my charts had 5 year old individuals.

I don't really understand what is the point behind posting that chart...

Your chart does not show weights of Kodiak bears with ages shown. Before you make bold statements, find more ( better ) data. 
 
http://shaggygod.proboards.com/thread/10...own?page=1 
 
By Ursus arctos: nteresting to see how the "312 kg" average figure often cited for Kodiak bears brakes down (note that the average weight of the 10 bears in the 6-7 year old and older categories have an average weight of 312 kg). An older, reproductive, male likely weighs substantially more (at least 835 lb). Reply

[brotherbear]

http://shaggygod.proboards.com/ 
 
By Grrraaahhh: RE: 312 kg figure. There are a handful of popular data tables people cite when it comes to North American brown & grizzly bear morphometry including weight. IMO, a comprehensive review of these data tables are called for hence the creation of the following thread. Some of the corresponding data have already been posted (see Extant/North America section) while more will be forthcoming. 


Getting back to Kodiak brown bears, from the Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge Center, the figure of 600-1,400 lbs for male bears is easier understood. The lower range numbers correspond to young adult male Kodiak bears while the higher numbers correspond to the older mature bears. Regrettably, the data for older "trophy" size bears is thin (in my experience, this is true for many bear populations) where such data can be found would be from hunting literature sources but outside of skull measurements; finding out other morphometrical info (e.g, weight, chest girth, body length, paw size, etc) is challenging. Nonetheless, after reviewing a lot of the technical literature, the quote of the "half-ton" Kodiak bear are common is accurate. Anecdotal observation, when I am watching tourist video (e.g., Youtube) or viewing photograph of mature Kodiak brown bears (less online material) and mature SW Peninsula brown bears (a lot more online sources), I see a lot of males pushing and exceeding half-ton weight & size. Reply

[Panther]

(12-10-2018, 02:57 PM)brotherbear Wrote: Your chart does not show weights of Kodiak bears with ages shown. Before you make bold statements, find more ( better ) data.

Let me make it clear...
The chart claiming 700lbs is definitely and most likely based on older individuals than the chart which is based on 6+ year old individuals.

Once again 6+ means more than 6. Like 7, 8, 9, etc..
This is simple logic..

Let's consider the following chart is based on individuals start from 7 year old (6+) age class. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Then the 700lbs average chart is based on larger &older individuals than this. What that means? It means the age class might start from 7+(8 year old) individuals. 

Both based on 10 individuals. So it's clear as hell that one got older individuals than the other. 

I should've posted the full study, if I found. But the full study is not posted on where I got this from.
But if you really want details, ask @Vodmeister.

I'm not claiming 700lbs would be average for adult males in summer and fall. I'm telling 800lbs is meaningfull... Reply