There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
12-08-2017, 03:42 AM( This post was last modified: 12-08-2017, 08:05 AM by sanjayEdit Reason: Removed inappropriate content
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(12-07-2017, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote: Have you guys ever researched the arguments against the relocation? I have...& they make sense.
See, it was never a viable plan. Here's why:
1. People don't do charity. MP has never even showed any interest in proposing an exchange lions for tigers to release in Gujarat's old tiger landscapes. Check #1,280for more... 2. Out of 650 lions, 400 live in the 2000km² odd Protected Areas, rest are spread over 20000km² of unprotected semi-habitat. That high competition, important for genetic purification, would be absent in MP.
Thus, for the Relocation-Project to succeed, they would have to shift atleast 50 completely unrelated lions. Gujarat's Forest officers (who come from all over India) predicted that & resisted.
3. @paul cooper Maybe they can coexist, with limited conflict. Or, maybe one party will push the other out depending on the vegetation pattern. It'll be knaive to risk EITHER, not this early.
4. @Wolverine (This one is personal opinion) I'd have tigers in Kuno-Palpur any day over lions. It's not just about the Ranthambore population. It's about connecting the whole "Western India Tiger Landscape" to rest of Central-India. PS: I'll make a detailed, seperate post on it elsewhere & tag you.
5. MP doesn't really have a great record as far as poaching is concerned.
In the state tigers are in right now, they absolutely cannot coexist in anyway.
There will be a lot of conflict due to the lack of prey.. its the female tigers that are the main problem. If tigresses mortality rates increase in the status they are in now (low breeding rates due to many factors caused by humans) tigers will be ......
12-09-2017, 09:33 AM( This post was last modified: 12-09-2017, 11:20 AM by Wolverine )
(12-07-2017, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote: 4. It's about connecting the whole "Western India Tiger Landscape" to rest of Central-India.
1. I afraid there is nothing to connect.... because there are almost no tigers left in Rajastan... Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the very west border of Madhua Pradesh with Rajastan. How many tigers inhabit Rajastan? Several dozens, probably a miserable 2% of total tiger population in India. So basically you want to connect something with nothing...
2. I am inclined to think that Western India and more especially Rajastan has been originally not tiger but "lion landscape"... Tigers are there because lions have been exterminated by humans during the last half millennia (for multiply reasons lions are much easier to be hunted down than tigers). Tigers like dense lush forest, lions like open savanna-like landscape. All deserted and semi-deserted Indian state of Rajastan and in generall all vast dry plains of India on North-West from Gwallior in MP look like perfect lion landscape and were densily populated by lions in the ancient times. I visited briefly as a tourist both Ranthambore and Gir forest back in the 90-s. Yes, the stipe slopes around the entrance of Ranthambore are covered by dense lush forest, a perfect tiger country, but as you start move further and deeper inside the park beside the lake, landscape become drier and drier, colours totally yellow, landscape become almost semi-arid. Huge parts of Ranthambore are actually covered by open savanna-like vegetation, a perfect lion-country. I saw more green vegetation in Gir forest during April than in Ranthambore in December.... I have big suspicion than in ancient times Ranthambore has been inhabited by lions, not by tigers. Yes, we know that in 18th and 19th centuries the tigers were already in Rajastan because we have old Rajput paintings showing tiger hunt by Rajput royalty. But if you return not 200 but much earlier - 500 or 800 years ago I guess you will find lions even in Ranthambore. When the lions were exterminated by humans tigers moved in the free territories. Tigers unlike lions are secretive, solitary, less noisy animals and were much more difficult to be hunted.
3. So brother, what do you offer - lions once inhabiting huge parts of Asia to remain forever stucked and blocked in the Kathiawar peninsula in Gujarat because of the selfishness and blindness of the group of Medieval people? Very gloomy prospective.
(12-07-2017, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote: 4. It's about connecting the whole "Western India Tiger Landscape" to rest of Central-India.
1. I afraid there is nothing to connect.... because there are almost no tigers left in Rajastan... Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the very west border of Madhua Pradesh with Rajastan. How many tigers inhabit Rajastan? Several dozens, probably a miserable 2% of total tiger population in India. So basically you want to connect something with nothing...
2. I am inclined to think that Western India and more especially Rajastan has been originally not tiger but "lion landscape"... Tigers are there because lions have been exterminated by humans during the last half millennia (for multiply reasons lions are much easier to be hunted down than tigers). Tigers like dense lush forest, lions like open savanna-like landscape. All deserted and semi-deserted Indian state of Rajastan and in generall all vast dry plains of India on North-West from Gwallior in MP look like perfect lion landscape and were densily populated by lions in the ancient times. I visited briefly as a tourist both Ranthambore and Gir forest back in the 90-s. Yes, the stipe slopes around the entrance of Ranthambore are covered by dense lush forest, a perfect tiger country, but as you start move further and deeper inside the park beside the lake, landscape become drier and drier, colours totally yellow, landscape become almost semi-arid. Huge parts of Ranthambore are actually covered by open savanna-like vegetation, a perfect lion-country. I saw more green vegetation in Gir forest during April than in Ranthambore in December.... I have big suspicion than in ancient times Ranthambore has been inhabited by lions, not by tigers. Yes, we know that in 18th and 19th centuries the tigers were already in Rajastan because we have old Rajput paintings showing tiger hunt by Rajput royalty. But if you return not 200 but much earlier - 500 or 800 years ago I guess you will find lions even in Ranthambore. When the lions were exterminated by humans tigers moved in the free territories. Tigers unlike lions are secretive, solitary, less noisy animals and were much more difficult to be hunted.
3. So Rishi, what do you offer - lions once inhabiting huge parts of Asia to remain forever stucked and blocked in the Kathiawar peninsula in Gujarat because of the selfishness and blindness of the group of Medieval people? Very gloomy prospective.
1. In that case you will make the tigers ****ed up too.
2. Ranthambore is a bit Savannah like indeed. But that doesnt mean lions used to live there, and it doesnt mean that tigers arent/werent/didnt live there before. Tigers live in a variety of habitats. And there are even minor differences between bengal tigers throughout all of india. So lets kill all the tigers with guns in ranthambore just to desperately put lions there cmon what are you waiting for?
3. There are already tigers there, and will always be running around there. So idk what you are thinking lol
(12-07-2017, 01:59 PM)Rishi Wrote: 4. It's about connecting the whole "Western India Tiger Landscape" to rest of Central-India.
1. I afraid there is nothing to connect.... because there are almost no tigers left in Rajastan... Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the very west border of Madhua Pradesh with Rajastan. How many tigers inhabit Rajastan? Several dozens, probably a miserable 2% of total tiger population in India. So basically you want to connect something with nothing...
2. I am inclined to think that Western India and more especially Rajastan has been originally not tiger but "lion landscape"... Tigers are there because lions have been exterminated by humans during the last half millennia (for multiply reasons lions are much easier to be hunted down than tigers). Tigers like dense lush forest, lions like open savanna-like landscape. All deserted and semi-deserted Indian state of Rajastan and in generall all vast dry plains of India on North-West from Gwallior in MP look like perfect lion landscape and were densily populated by lions in the ancient times. I visited briefly as a tourist both Ranthambore and Gir forest back in the 90-s. Yes, the stipe slopes around the entrance of Ranthambore are covered by dense lush forest, a perfect tiger country, but as you start move further and deeper inside the park beside the lake, landscape become drier and drier, colours totally yellow, landscape become almost semi-arid. Huge parts of Ranthambore are actually covered by open savanna-like vegetation, a perfect lion-country. I saw more green vegetation in Gir forest during April than in Ranthambore in December.... I have big suspicion than in ancient times Ranthambore has been inhabited by lions, not by tigers. Yes, we know that in 18th and 19th centuries the tigers were already in Rajastan because we have old Rajput paintings showing tiger hunt by Rajput royalty. But if you return not 200 but much earlier - 500 or 800 years ago I guess you will find lions even in Ranthambore. When the lions were exterminated by humans tigers moved in the free territories. Tigers unlike lions are secretive, solitary, less noisy animals and were much more difficult to be hunted.
3. So Rishi, what do you offer - lions once inhabiting huge parts of Asia to remain forever stucked and blocked in the Kathiawar peninsula in Gujarat because of the selfishness and blindness of the group of Medieval people? Very gloomy prospective.
1. In that case you will make the tigers ****ed up too.
2. Ranthambore is a bit Savannah like indeed. But that doesnt mean lions used to live there, and it doesnt mean that tigers arent/werent/didnt live there before. Tigers live in a variety of habitats. And there are even minor differences between bengal tigers throughout all of india. So lets kill all the tigers with guns in ranthambore just to desperately put lions there cmon what are you waiting for?
3. There are already tigers there, and will always be running around there. So idk what you are thinking lol
I have never said this bro. Ranthambore is one of the tigers stongholds and also a symbol. I just sometimes like to search deep in the history because for me is very interesting where were the borderlines between two species in Ancient India.
12-09-2017, 11:52 AM( This post was last modified: 12-09-2017, 12:03 PM by Rishi )
(12-09-2017, 09:33 AM)Wolverine Wrote: 1. I afraid there is nothing to connect.... because there are almost no tigers left in Rajastan... Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the very west border of Madhua Pradesh with Rajastan. How many tigers inhabit Rajastan? Several dozens, probably a miserable 2% of total tiger population in India. So basically you want to connect something with nothing...
2. I am inclined to think that Western India and more especially Rajastan has been originally not tiger but "lion landscape"... Tigers are there because lions have been exterminated by humans during the last half millennia (for multiply reasons lions are much easier to be hunted down than tigers). Tigers like dense lush forest, lions like open savanna-like landscape. All deserted and semi-deserted Indian state of Rajastan and in generall all vast dry plains of India on North-West from Gwallior in MP look like perfect lion landscape and were densily populated by lions in the ancient times. I visited briefly as a tourist both Ranthambore and Gir forest back in the 90-s. Yes, the stipe slopes around the entrance of Ranthambore are covered by dense lush forest, a perfect tiger country, but as you start move further and deeper inside the park beside the lake, landscape become drier and drier, colours totally yellow, landscape become almost semi-arid. Huge parts of Ranthambore are actually covered by open savanna-like vegetation, a perfect lion-country. I saw more green vegetation in Gir forest during April than in Ranthambore in December.... I have big suspicion than in ancient times Ranthambore has been inhabited by lions, not by tigers. Yes, we know that in 18th and 19th centuries the tigers were already in Rajastan because we have old Rajput paintings showing tiger hunt by Rajput royalty. But if you return not 200 but much earlier - 500 or 800 years ago I guess you will find lions, even in Ranthambore. When the lions were exterminated by humans tigers moved in the free territories. Tigers unlike lions are secretive, solitary, less noisy animals and were much more difficult to be hunted.
There are 5 dozens, genetically distinct enough to be visually recognised. We are not going to neglect their future over whims & fascinations.
This has been discussed before in this thread, anyway. The then Sawai Madhopur boasted presence of both lion & tiger.
But back then the Princely State of Gwalior (<map here) had a high tiger population that aided genetic exchange between today's Ranthambore's & the rest of Central India.
I once rooted for Kuno relocation, but since then things have changed.
Tigers are traveling north. If there are tigers in Kuno now, it will act as a bridge & there will be genetic exchange.
(Detailed post tomorrow..I'll tag you)
PS: No, it cannot be done by relocation. Ranth is brimming with tigers. WII will never permit to introduce another one there. The newer gene would have to come from exploring males fighting their way in..
Quote:3. So Rishi, what do you offer - lions once inhabiting huge parts of Asia to remain forever stucked and blocked in the Kathiawar peninsula in Gujarat because of the selfishness and blindness of the group of Medieval people? Very gloomy prospective.
The purpose of lion translocation was to create "seperate independent populations" & that can be served without taking them out of the state..for the time being.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The state of Gujrat has multiple sites like Kutchh, forests of Aravalli foothills & Narmada Basin, Wastelands West of Bhuj etc. that can (probably did) house lions & should be favoured over far-off/controversial Kuno.
Even after that there is whole of Thar desert & Aravalli hills in Rajasthan.. then comes scrublands East of that.
12-10-2017, 10:19 AM( This post was last modified: 12-10-2017, 10:21 AM by Wolverine )
So Rishi shortly I think the government of Madhya Pradesh should demonstrate same stubbornness as the stubbornness of the authorities in Ahmadabad. Kuno wildlife sanctuary should be turned temporarily into "zone free of large predators", fenced well from the Ranthambore direction and from the East and turned into Kuno LEOPARD reserve, where this middle sized cats along with dholes and grey wolves will be temporarily the main hunters (some kind of Sri Lanka park without canids). Then MP have to wait one or two decades until growing international pressure and growing Indian federal pressure inevitably crush the will of the local authorities in Gujarat and they finally agree to share some of their lions.
MP dreams to make Kuno a lion reserve, Gujarat is not allowing this and want to make it a tiger reserve, so as revenge Madhya Pradesh should temporarily turn Kuno .... into leopard reserve.... and keep Gujarat always in alert... I am filling a proud citizen of Madhya Pradesh.
12-10-2017, 11:22 AM( This post was last modified: 12-10-2017, 11:27 AM by Rishi )
(12-10-2017, 10:19 AM)Wolverine Wrote: So Rishi shortly I think the government of Madhya Pradesh should demonstrate same stubbornness as the stubbornness of the authorities in Ahmadabad. Kuno wildlife sanctuary should be turned temporarily into "zone free of large predators", fenced well from the Ranthambore direction and from the East and turned into Kuno LEOPARD reserve, where this middle sized cats along with dholes and grey wolves will be temporarily the main hunters (some kind of Sri Lanka park without canids). Then MP have to wait one or two decades until growing international pressure and growing Indian federal pressure inevitably crush the will of the local authorities in Gujarat and they finally agree to share some of their lions.
There's is a saying we have.. "চোরের উপর রাগ করে মাটিতে ভাত খাওয়া".
It means something like.. "Eating food directly from the table because you're angry on the thief who stole your dinner plate".
Brother, despite the obstacles we should fight for the creation of second home for Asiatic lions and not capitulate. In such cases could be applied the words of Winston Churchill pronounced by him in the face of Nazi invasion in the British isles when England faced the largest danger in her history:
"We shall go on to the end. ... we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
A second home for Asiatic lions must be created. And one day after 50, 80 or 100 years when the ecological and environment consciousness awake in the Middle East and trough Muslim world this majestic beasts maybe will roam again trough all over the Asia - Iran, Turkey, Balkans etc.
Its wonderful that number of lions in Kathiawar peninsula has reached 600 (I think this data is still unconfirmed and unofficial) but that is not enough because they still represent a single unified population vulnerable to diseases, epidemis, social conflicts and civil wars, nobody knows maybe after 70 or 90 years in Gujarat will be a civil war or war with Pakistan... That's happened before with Virunga national park in Congo or Manas in India where civil wars exterminated all wild animals.
In the article you citated the most important are the last two sentences: "The activist alleged that the BJP government in the state deliberetly climbed down to allow the party-rulled government in Gujarat and Prime minister Narendra Modi to score brownie points ahead of the assembly elections. The MP wildlife board's recommendation WILL CREATE AN IMPRESSION THAT GUJARAT HAS WON THE BATTLE and scuttled translocation to protect its USP, he said" .
So its quite possible that this are only political games before elections. In any way Kuno should be ready to accept lions even after 30 years.
Brother, despite the obstacles we should fight for the creation of second home for Asiatic lions and not capitulate. In such cases could be applied the words of Winston Churchill pronounced by him in the face of Nazi invasion in the British isles when England faced the largest danger in her history:
"We shall go on to the end. ... we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
A second home for Asiatic lions must be created. And one day after 50, 80 or 100 years when the ecological and environment consciousness awake in the Middle East and trough Muslim world this majestic beasts maybe will roam again trough all over the Asia - Iran, Turkey, Balkans etc.
Its wonderful that number of lions in Kathiawar peninsula has reached 600 (I think this data is still unconfirmed and unofficial) but that is not enough because they still represent a single unified population vulnerable to diseases, epidemis, social conflicts and civil wars, nobody knows maybe after 70 or 90 years in Gujarat will be a civil war or war with Pakistan... That's happened before with Virunga national park in Congo or Manas in India where civil wars exterminated all wild animals.
In the article you citated the most important are the last two sentences: "The activist alleged that the BJP government in the state deliberetly climbed down to allow the party-rulled government in Gujarat and Prime minister Narendra Modi to score brownie points ahead of the assembly elections. The MP wildlife board's recommendation WILL CREATE AN IMPRESSION THAT GUJARAT HAS WON THE BATTLE and scuttled translocation to protect its USP, he said" .
So its quite possible that this are only political games before elections. In any way Kuno should be ready to accept lions even after 30 years.
Lions and tigers cannot coexist! They were able to hundreds of years ago, but not anymore! This mustn't happen. Do you need studies and for me to write a damn paper here? Im not against asiatic lions getting new habitats etc.. arent there other reserves besides the ones with TIGERS???
12-23-2017, 11:49 AM( This post was last modified: 12-23-2017, 11:51 AM by Rishi )
Indore zoo to realize lion dream of Kuno-Palpur
Press Trust of India | Indore
December, 2017
*This image is copyright of its original author
An ambitious project to develop Kuno-Palpur Wildlife sanctuary another home for the Asiatic Lions got a new lease of life after the proposal from the Kamla Nehru zoo in Indore to give 6 of its lions to Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary in Sheopur. The Kuno sanctuary is originally earmarked as the relocation home for the Lions from Gir Gujarat where its ever-increasing number has led to frequent deaths from infighting and other reasons.
One of Central-India's last lion stronghold, Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary is situated in the Sheopur district of the Madhya Pradesh and is around 200 km from the Gwalior. Kuno has vast scrublands, a habitat perfectly suitable for the Asiatic Lions which were here till 1875 till the last of the animal was hunted down.
Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the Sheopur district of the Madhya Pradesh and is around 200 km from the Gwalior. Kuno has vast grasslands, a habitat perfectly suitable for the Asiatic Lions which were here till 1873 till the last of the animal was hunted down.
Kuno has been prepared to receive the Lions from the Gir, based on stringent relocation guidelines developed by IUCN/SSC Reintroduction Specialist Groupand IUCN/SSC Conservation Breeding Specialist Group.
However, the relocation of the Lions became a political matter with Gujarat Government refusing to let go its big cats out of fear of losing the tag of the exclusive home of Asiatic Lions, and an additional 900 sq km of buffer zone was created in 2015 but, have made no mention of notifying the buffer zone area as a sanctuary, which is being contended by Gujarat government.
Diluting its claim on the programme, MP government decided to release and rehabilitate tigers in the Kuno-Palpur sanctuary which they claim is ready.
But, tigers cannot be translocated without the permission of National Tiger Conservation Authority (NTCA). Sources said that the wildlife board has decided to go ahead with the decision without NTCA nod.
In the meanwhile, Indore Zoo has readied a proposal to send 4 Lions and 2 Lioness from the Zoo to the Kuno Wildlife sanctuary. Currently, Indore Zoo is holding 12 of these big cats. MP's Bhopal zoo has recently recieved 4 lions from Assam & the state has a healthy diversity to captive lions.
A big male paces along the enclosure boundary.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"We are going send the proposal of six lions to top state wildlife officials. If we get the green light, we are ready to send two lionesses and four lions to Kuno-Palpur," Kamla Nehru zoo-incharge Uttam Yadav said.
Dr. Uttam confirmed that if their proposal gets through, these Lions would be rewilded as per the guidelines adopted for the release of captive bred animals into the wild. Let’s hope the proposal of Indore zoo materializes soon and the lions get their share of the wild.
Because, there is also a concern about the conflict with the Tigers one they get relocated tot the Kuno Wildlife sanctuary. So, it's either now or never...
12-23-2017, 12:02 PM( This post was last modified: 12-23-2017, 12:03 PM by paul cooper )
(12-23-2017, 11:49 AM)Rishi Wrote: Indore zoo to realize lion dream of Kuno-Palpur
Press Trust of India | Indore
December, 2017
*This image is copyright of its original author
An ambitious project to develop Kuno-Palpur Wildlife sanctuary another home for the Asiatic Lions got a new lease of life after the proposal from the Kamla Nehru zoo in Indore to give 6 of its lions to Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary in Sheopur. The Kuno sanctuary is originally earmarked as the relocation home for the Lions from Gir Gujarat where its ever-increasing number has led to frequent deaths from infighting and other reasons.
One of Central-India's last lion stronghold, Kuno-Palpur Wildlife Sanctuary is situated in the Sheopur district of the Madhya Pradesh and is around 200 km from the Gwalior. Kuno has vast scrublands, a habitat perfectly suitable for the Asiatic Lions which were here till 1875 till the last of the animal was hunted down.
Kuno wildlife sanctuary is situated in the Sheopur district of the Madhya Pradesh and is around 200 km from the Gwalior. Kuno has vast grasslands, a habitat perfectly suitable for the Asiatic Lions which were here till 1873 till the last of the animal was hunted down.
Kuno has been prepared to receive the Lions from the Gir, based on stringent relocation guidelines developed by IUCN/SSC Reintroduction Specialist Groupand IUCN/SSC Conservation Breeding Specialist Group.
However, the relocation of the Lions became a political matter with Gujarat Government refusing to let go its big cats out of fear of losing the tag of the exclusive home of Asiatic Lions, and an additional 900 sq km of buffer zone was created in 2015 but, have made no mention of notifying the buffer zone area as a sanctuary, which is being contended by Gujarat government.
Diluting its claim on the programme, MP government decided to release and rehabilitate tigers in the Kuno-Palpur sanctuary which they claim is ready.
But, tigers cannot be translocated without the permission of National Tiger Conservation Authority (NTCA). Sources said that the wildlife board has decided to go ahead with the decision without NTCA nod.
In the meanwhile, Indore Zoo has readied a proposal to send 4 Lions and 2 Lioness from the Zoo to the Kuno Wildlife sanctuary. Currently, Indore Zoo is holding 12 of these big cats. MP's Bhopal zoo has recently recieved 4 lions from Assam & the state has a healthy diversity to captive lions.
A big male paces along the enclosure boundary.
*This image is copyright of its original author
"We are going send the proposal of six lions to top state wildlife officials. If we get the green light, we are ready to send two lionesses and four lions to Kuno-Palpur," Kamla Nehru zoo-incharge Uttam Yadav said.
Dr. Uttam confirmed that if their proposal gets through, these Lions would be rewilded as per the guidelines adopted for the release of captive bred animals into the wild. Let’s hope the proposal of Indore zoo materializes soon and the lions get their share of the wild.
Because, there is also a concern about the conflict with the Tigers one they get relocated tot the Kuno Wildlife sanctuary. So, it's either now or never...
isnt there any experts saying anything about this shit? karanth?? Miquelle?
Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project
