There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(06-10-2020, 02:03 AM)Pckts Wrote: Believe it or not that's actually a Tigress and I'm finding out if she succeeded in dragging it up the slope.
I have no trouble believing it, that it´s a tigress. I have noticed from multiple videos with tigers and lions, that that long and steep uphill is very challenging because they struggle already in way easier places. Maybe with a lot of time and extreme effort. It can be also, that these people haven´t had time to wait and see or they haven´t wanted to disturb tigress too much.
(06-10-2020, 02:03 AM)Pckts Wrote: Believe it or not that's actually a Tigress and I'm finding out if she succeeded in dragging it up the slope.
Here is another video of a tiger (tigress) with carcass and uphill. If some people are wondering, why I´m interested to find out if more information. It´s not easy to drag uphill. It´s obviously hard work.
06-12-2020, 02:35 PM( This post was last modified: 06-12-2020, 09:42 PM by Shadow )
(06-09-2020, 04:09 PM)OncaAtrox Wrote: Researcher witnesses one jaguar dragging a 500 kg bull carcass:
"A tucura bull weighing more than 500 kg had been run over by a truck the previous day, and the carcass had been left over the embankment of the road. With the Kombi headlights on, I was looking for the bull's carcass, when I realized that it was no longer on the road. Curious, I stopped the car and saw that it had been dragged, descending the ravine about 3 m from the elevated bed of the road, breaking the bush vegetation along the way. Finding this strange, I searched the road with the light from the lighthouse and my flashlight, and soon found footprints from a large male of jaguar, who was certainly responsible for the displacement of the carcass. Illuminating with the flashlight, I saw that the carcass had been dragged to a smooth, four-wire wire fence, which was in the process of being built, precisely to prevent free access of cattle to the road, on its west side, within the lands of Fazenda Jofre (at the time, owned by Geraldo Gouveia). On the other side of the fence there was a bush, where the jaguar was certainly looking at me at that moment. Excited and curious, I thought it best to come back later, in daylight, to collect more information. When I completed the 6 hour shift of observing alligators, I went back there and got a better look at what had happened. There were some vultures perched on nearby trees, but since none were on the ground, I could conclude that the jaguar was nearby. The carcass was no longer in the same position, the predator tried to drag it under the last wire of the fence, about 40 cm from the ground, in the process breaking one of the bull's horns - you could imagine the strength needed for that. ! Some 15 to 20 kilos of meat from the forequarters and breast had already been consumed. As at that time there was still little transit through the Transpantaneira, it was quite evident that the male had eaten in the carcass still exposed, in broad daylight. At the end of the afternoon, when I passed the place again, the jaguar had managed to pass that huge carcass under the fence, and dragged it another 15 meters west, into the forest capon, thereby creating a tunnel through the tangled vegetation. The vultures were still perched on the trees, and as it was getting dark, I thought it best not to get any closer. I stopped again the next morning and as there were one or two vultures risking to land on the ground, outside the capon, I reached the tunnel entrance and forced my eyes, trying to see through the shadows, in the shadows inside the forest. More to control the "chill in the belly" and the hair on the back of the neck, I started talking to the jaguar, in case she was there, in a low tone, trying to keep my voice steady. As I was asking questions that were puzzling me (Are you still around? Don't get me wrong, but I would like you to answer a few questions… You don't have to worry, I won't steal your carcass… I just want to know how much you ate, and which parts you eat the most. like…) I was getting closer, meter by meter, clapping my hands from time to time. From the almost palpable tension I felt in the air, I'm sure he was there! The carcass was about 10-12 meters further in the center of the small island of forest and, stretching my neck, I could see that the viscera had been removed and at least another 10 to 15 kg of meat eaten, advancing to the part posterior of the bull. I repeated the visit and the procedures yet again, having to return to Poconé, the next day, due to commitments made. But even today I remember the electrifying and extremely beneficial moments that these circumstances provided me!"
By Fernando Tortato (collaboration with Rafael Hoogesteijn)
Original link in Portuguese:https://www.oeco.org.br/blogs/rastro-de-onca/28928-um-rodizio-para-as-oncas/
I assume, that there are no photos from this place and situation? When I read this, one thing what I noticed is, that it´s said that this bull was hit by a car on elevated bed of the road and carcass was left on the embankment. So it has been very easy to drag downhill, depending a bit of terrain, but there is said to have been vegetation, which means most probably grass, wet grass helps a lot in dragging something heavy on it. One, which is good to notice is, that timeline is something like 1-2 days and same time description tells, that jaguar was able to drag that carcass maybe 20-30 meters and the beginning has been very easy terrain.
I dare to say this, because I have been dragging myself with my friend a carcass of a big male moose (400-500 kg easily) from the road after collision. It was very easy to drag on tarmac, so we dragged it on the side of the road. Fur and tarmac had almost no friction. It was also elevated bed of the road, we could have, without any doubt, dragged it down the embankment and let it slide down. In that case we would have dragged it instead 5 meters something like 10-15 meters in a few seconds.... impressive what comes to strength... nope, it was far too easy. It felt like nothing really when we got that carcass moving, it slid so easily.
Anyway without knowing the terrain ( Was there a ditch maybe? Or could jaguar drag the carcass down the embankment and then continue on flat terrain?) it´s difficult to say too much. Terrain matters quite a lot based on different clips, which I´ve seen of different big cats dragging. Also jaguars can be seen to struggle with carcasses clearly bigger than themselves showing, that it´s hard work.That horn thing doesn´t impress me too much because this animal had been hit by a car before.
All in all, on even ground and downhill predators can drag quite big carcasses overall depending somewhat of the terrain. The bigger the carcass is, it changes to more and more difficult and slow, in that way also this case is in the line with other cases with any decent reliability.
To give an example how much terrain can help, here one video of jaguar dragging. 0:50 forward and again 1:20 forward it can be seen how easy it can be in suitable ground. That jaguar needs just to give a good yank and carcass can be seen sliding on the grass. With decent rhythm on that kind of terrain that carcass could be dragged long distances in relatively short time if no uphill. I think, that for us people it could and would be even easier, because we can take a grip from hind leg and start to pull and then walk in steady pace keeping steady pull and capitalizing it, that no friction between carcass and grass.
This is another jaguar dragging video, terrain is even but less slippery. From 0:35 forward happens the dragging, this time jaguar needs to drag more. Not the most difficult terrain, but also not giving it all free, there is strength, no question about it. Question is always about it, that how much really :)
Very impressive here. This Kruger male killed a bull buffalo and actually dragged the whole thing. There is only a few seconds of him the dragging the carcass in the end. Here is the description given by the uploader.
Quote:I was inspired by the strength of a Lion that had killed a buffalo and he took the complete carcas into the bushes
The residents of Julio Mesquita and neighboring towns are concerned about the appearance of a large predator animal, possibly a jaguar, which killed and then dragged a heifer weighing about 300-400 kilograms for over 20 meters. The attack occurred on a farm that is practically on the urban perimeter of the city.
The jaguar dragged its prey to try and hide it.
The attack occurred at the Inhema farm, which is between the municipalities of Álvaro de Carvalho and Julio Mesquita, near the prison.
"Normally these predators would be the Puma. But because of the way it dragged the heavy heifer like this, it can only be a jaguar, and we also heard this from experienced people such as Mr. Mauro Castilho, very well known here in the region" said now at night Sergeant Anequini, commander of the Military Police in Julio Mesquita.
According to Sergeant Anequini, the heifer was killed in an attack that hit below one of her paws, pulling out a large piece of meat. The officials found the animal, but decided they would not bury it until the next day. But at night the jaguar returned and dragged its prey for about 20 meters in an attempt to hide it, but failed.
Jaguars usually live in forests and with nocturnal habits, that is, they hunt at night. They have strong and sharp teeth to grind their raw food, as well as elongated and very strong jaws.
The attack occurred near the heifer's neck.
They usually attack the head and neck of the animal, as it happened in the region. Their bite is considered one of the strongest in the animal kingdom.''
" One of the Selati male lion coalition shows his tremendous power by dragging a buffalo into the shade. Filmed in the Sabi Sand Wildtuin, Greater Kruger National Park, South Africa "
Back when Sabi Sands leopard Tingana was in his prime:
"Anyone that has ever had the opportunity to witness the sheer power and prowess of big cats in action can stand testament to a leopard’s ability to catch and kill prey far larger than themselves. In this instance, a male leopard weighing around 85kg caught and killed a blue wildebeest bull which could have weighed as much as 290kg"
09-21-2020, 06:34 PM( This post was last modified: 09-22-2020, 03:44 PM by Rishi )
(09-20-2020, 02:29 AM)Yusuf Wrote:
(09-11-2020, 08:42 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(09-09-2020, 08:58 PM)Scout Wrote: Guate, I noticed that in the conclusive tables you made for lions and tigers at species levels, the HB-length of tigers is listed as 190cm vs 191cm for P. leo krugeri. So it means that kruger lions are actually slighly longer on average than bengal tigers in HB-length?
Actually the conclution will be that Bengal tiger and South African lions are about the same body length and height, but Bengal tigers are still more robust with larger chest girths and are heavier overall.
Also we most remember that the head of the lion is also longer than the head of the tiger, so that means that overall the body of the tiger is still longer than the body of the lion, if you take in count that from the same body length (c.190 cm), the head of the lion occupy 38.0 cm while the head of the tiger is of 35.3 cm.
Personally I disagree a bit. Especially at the claim that tigers are more robust which is nonsense in my opinion if you look at studies were the bones are analysed or fights were tigers bones got often destroyed by lions.
First of all I want to share a reliable account. In would include them to the southern lions because they came from there.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You did in your tables miscalculations(which is normal therefore I dont want to attack you with that). The weight difference between lion and tigers is about 10 kg. 10kg is about 5% in the weight range were the lion and tigers are. That is nearly nothing. Like you comparing a 60kg to a 63 kg guy. Lions are therefore 2% taller.
Tigers have not more girth in the chest department. They overlap if you take a closer look. But I'm sure that lions have a more solid chest than tigers on average. Note tigers have a thicker skin and more fat than lions in the belly and chest area and this will surely add 1 inch or more. (I practice myself bodybuilding and I know how much girth I loose in cuts). About 3% of girth i loose from my biceps and that only because of FAT!
Look only at Volkel. Large and Robust looking lion(not really bulky). I think a 148cm chest with a solid shape is better than a 160cm lion or tiger who is overweight.
*This image is copyright of its original author
With the rest I agreed. Lions maybe gain 2cm extra length because of their skull. But this is the same with the overall length. Tigers gain many fake extra length because of their tails. Therefore Im focusing on Head Body lengths. As you said the tiger of Brander had the potential to measure much more overall. Proves again how much tails falsify the real length in my opinion.
But even then it's nearly the same length of we substract 2cm from the HB length.
But in captivity with similar amount of food tigers doesnt seem to be heavier. Some tamers told me that tigers have a bit more appetite.
I never saw a cat with such a robustness... holy crap.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
More little kid's book garbage. Lions,bears,tigers are not breaking the bones of anything by striking,that is anatomically impossible for them and will never happen their power is better expressed by biting and pulling they have soft paws they're not designed like humans they can't throw punches with power like us.
(09-09-2020, 08:58 PM)Scout Wrote: Guate, I noticed that in the conclusive tables you made for lions and tigers at species levels, the HB-length of tigers is listed as 190cm vs 191cm for P. leo krugeri. So it means that kruger lions are actually slighly longer on average than bengal tigers in HB-length?
Actually the conclution will be that Bengal tiger and South African lions are about the same body length and height, but Bengal tigers are still more robust with larger chest girths and are heavier overall.
Also we most remember that the head of the lion is also longer than the head of the tiger, so that means that overall the body of the tiger is still longer than the body of the lion, if you take in count that from the same body length (c.190 cm), the head of the lion occupy 38.0 cm while the head of the tiger is of 35.3 cm.
Personally I disagree a bit. Especially at the claim that tigers are more robust which is nonsense in my opinion if you look at studies were the bones are analysed or fights were tigers bones got often destroyed by lions.
First of all I want to share a reliable account. In would include them to the southern lions because they came from there.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You did in your tables miscalculations(which is normal therefore I dont want to attack you with that). The weight difference between lion and tigers is about 10 kg. 10kg is about 5% in the weight range were the lion and tigers are. That is nearly nothing. Like you comparing a 60kg to a 63 kg guy. Lions are therefore 2% taller.
Tigers have not more girth in the chest department. They overlap if you take a closer look. But I'm sure that lions have a more solid chest than tigers on average. Note tigers have a thicker skin and more fat than lions in the belly and chest area and this will surely add 1 inch or more. (I practice myself bodybuilding and I know how much girth I loose in cuts). About 3% of girth i loose from my biceps and that only because of FAT!
Look only at Volkel. Large and Robust looking lion(not really bulky). I think a 148cm chest with a solid shape is better than a 160cm lion or tiger who is overweight.
*This image is copyright of its original author
With the rest I agreed. Lions maybe gain 2cm extra length because of their skull. But this is the same with the overall length. Tigers gain many fake extra length because of their tails. Therefore Im focusing on Head Body lengths. As you said the tiger of Brander had the potential to measure much more overall. Proves again how much tails falsify the real length in my opinion.
But even then it's nearly the same length of we substract 2cm from the HB length.
But in captivity with similar amount of food tigers doesnt seem to be heavier. Some tamers told me that tigers have a bit more appetite.
I never saw a cat with such a robustness... holy crap.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
more little kid garbage,lions,bears,tigers are not breaking the bones of anything by striking,that is anatomically impossible for them and will never happen their power is better expressed by biting and pulling they have soft paws they're not designed like humans they can't throw punches with power like us.
They do brake bones with paw swipes. Very serious sources confirm it, that it happens sometimes. But it´s not something what can be seen too often. When people expect to see it all the time, then it goes to exaggeration. It´s one thing to for instance brake spine of a hyena or a wolf by a lion, tiger or a bear and another when for instance lion swipes another lion. In this I believe experts, who say it clearly.
I put just one source, because this is a thread concerning weights.
Quote: "The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine. Often the bear will also bite its prey in the snout, which leaves deep canine marks that are clearly visible. The distance between the bear's canines is between 45–65 millimetres. The bear has also been known to bite its prey in the back of the neck to kill it."
I trust to this source more than any poster, so I don´t start to debate this more. I just point out, that it´s official site and information comes from serious people knowing wildlife.
"This website is the number one source of information on Finland's large carnivores. We offer objective and reliable information and help people coexist with these animals.
The website is maintained by Metsähallitus, the Finnish Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Finnish Wildlife Agency, Natural Resources Institute Finland (Luke) and the Finnish Ministry of the Environment."
http://www.largecarnivores.fi/
The following 1 user Likes Shadow's post:1 user Likes Shadow's post • Rishi
09-21-2020, 08:08 PM( This post was last modified: 09-21-2020, 08:09 PM by Rage2277 )
(09-21-2020, 07:27 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-21-2020, 06:34 PM)Rage2277 Wrote:
(09-20-2020, 02:29 AM)Yusuf Wrote:
(09-11-2020, 08:42 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(09-09-2020, 08:58 PM)Scout Wrote: Guate, I noticed that in the conclusive tables you made for lions and tigers at species levels, the HB-length of tigers is listed as 190cm vs 191cm for P. leo krugeri. So it means that kruger lions are actually slighly longer on average than bengal tigers in HB-length?
Actually the conclution will be that Bengal tiger and South African lions are about the same body length and height, but Bengal tigers are still more robust with larger chest girths and are heavier overall.
Also we most remember that the head of the lion is also longer than the head of the tiger, so that means that overall the body of the tiger is still longer than the body of the lion, if you take in count that from the same body length (c.190 cm), the head of the lion occupy 38.0 cm while the head of the tiger is of 35.3 cm.
Personally I disagree a bit. Especially at the claim that tigers are more robust which is nonsense in my opinion if you look at studies were the bones are analysed or fights were tigers bones got often destroyed by lions.
First of all I want to share a reliable account. In would include them to the southern lions because they came from there.
*This image is copyright of its original author
You did in your tables miscalculations(which is normal therefore I dont want to attack you with that). The weight difference between lion and tigers is about 10 kg. 10kg is about 5% in the weight range were the lion and tigers are. That is nearly nothing. Like you comparing a 60kg to a 63 kg guy. Lions are therefore 2% taller.
Tigers have not more girth in the chest department. They overlap if you take a closer look. But I'm sure that lions have a more solid chest than tigers on average. Note tigers have a thicker skin and more fat than lions in the belly and chest area and this will surely add 1 inch or more. (I practice myself bodybuilding and I know how much girth I loose in cuts). About 3% of girth i loose from my biceps and that only because of FAT!
Look only at Volkel. Large and Robust looking lion(not really bulky). I think a 148cm chest with a solid shape is better than a 160cm lion or tiger who is overweight.
*This image is copyright of its original author
With the rest I agreed. Lions maybe gain 2cm extra length because of their skull. But this is the same with the overall length. Tigers gain many fake extra length because of their tails. Therefore Im focusing on Head Body lengths. As you said the tiger of Brander had the potential to measure much more overall. Proves again how much tails falsify the real length in my opinion.
But even then it's nearly the same length of we substract 2cm from the HB length.
But in captivity with similar amount of food tigers doesnt seem to be heavier. Some tamers told me that tigers have a bit more appetite.
I never saw a cat with such a robustness... holy crap.
*This image is copyright of its original author
*This image is copyright of its original author
more little kid garbage,lions,bears,tigers are not breaking the bones of anything by striking,that is anatomically impossible for them and will never happen their power is better expressed by biting and pulling they have soft paws they're not designed like humans they can't throw punches with power like us.
They do brake bones with paw swipes. Very serious sources confirm it, that it happens sometimes. But it´s not something what can be seen too often. When people expect to see it all the time, then it goes to exaggeration. It´s one thing to for instance brake spine of a hyena or a wolf by a lion, tiger or a bear and another when for instance lion swipes another lion. In this I believe experts, who say it clearly.
I put just one source, because this is a thread concerning weights.
Quote: "The bear kills its prey by biting it in the neck or back. It can also kill the prey animal with a strike of its forepaw, which is often enough to break the animal's spine. Often the bear will also bite its prey in the snout, which leaves deep canine marks that are clearly visible. The distance between the bear's canines is between 45–65 millimetres. The bear has also been known to bite its prey in the back of the neck to kill it."
I trust to this source more than any poster, so I don´t start to debate this more. I just point out, that it´s official site and information comes from serious people knowing wildlife.
"This website is the number one source of information on Finland's large carnivores. We offer objective and reliable information and help people coexist with these animals.
The website is maintained by Metsähallitus, the Finnish Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, the Finnish Wildlife Agency, Natural Resources Institute Finland (Luke) and the Finnish Ministry of the Environment."
http://www.largecarnivores.fi/
those very serious sources are citing fairytales from the 1600s..if they're not designed like this there won't be any punching and bone breaking happening
09-21-2020, 08:36 PM( This post was last modified: 09-21-2020, 08:37 PM by Ashutosh )
True @Pckts @Rage2277, most deaths in those instances happen because of claw swipes rather than paw swipes. A recent example would be the Ankara zoo incident from 2011. The jugular of the lion was severed by a single claw swipe and it bled out in minutes.
