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About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
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About methods, measurements, errors, baits and the art of debating
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Wow, now this at Carnivora
"NoticeYour reply must go through moderator approval before being displayed." I'm done with that place, anybody reading this from there just know that the alleged "mod" has the most hidden agenda I have ever seen. I've never seen such a blatant censorship of great posts that prove somebody wrong or disagrees with another member. How can you call your self a mod of a public forum yet delete and dictate what is said on the forum when it comes from a member of another place? Its crazy to me.... I'll stick to the place that actually cares about information being shared and the animals its discussing. Seeing how Carnivora was ran makes me appreciate this place even more. End of rant.... Sorry Back to the topic Edit; On a side note, do any of you know how to delete my account from there? 
Don't lost the peace @Pckts, an intelligent poster will see the biased censorship in that forum and will came here, if is an intelligent poster.
It seems that they have been unable to evolve the "vs" theme, specially in the disastrous them of lions and tigers. About erasing your account, just leave it like that, it is not relevant. 
It's just a suggestion, but I don't feel we should be discussing other forums here.
 (10-01-2015, 04:15 AM)Shardul Wrote: It's just a suggestion, but I don't feel we should be discussing other forums here. Agreed. But remember it didn't start here. Also remember the owners and mods were targeted by a poster of another forum. As a co-owner, I thought a response was justified. The one responsible was addressed. The exchange that followed wasn't about 'methods', but, initially, about a bait and a mirror and, when it had no effect, about exposing a poster with an agenda. The agenda wasn't about 'methods' and preference, but something else. It was anticipated. While he was buying new clothes, the case was closed. Chances are they will now think twice. All clear? Most unfortunately, some of us didn't see that it was about competition, envy and all the rest of it. For those with abilities in particular, life isn't about a decent result for all. More often than not, it is about status and power. When you want it, you have to be prepared to act accordingly. Others will be targeted. If you are and do not respond, it will happen again. When I acted, I did so for all. This was not well understood and the result was different initiatives and quite a bit of confusion. But the goal was realized in spite of that and that was the end of it. PC. Apology noted and respected. Can I advice for some maintenance anyhow? Top floor? I know you are interested in big cats. I also understand you want to talk about them. Do what you want to do by all means. However, there's a few things to remember when you walk outside your neighbourhood. One is you will be noticed. Two is questions will be asked and three is you could be used by those guided by distrust. What I'm saying is you need to be aware of what you're doing. As for Carnivora. When AVA was hacked, my account was hacked as well. The hacker used it to contact the owner of Carnivora. He contacted Yuku. Although they told him my account had been misused, he accused me of bad intentions anyway. Distrust at work. Those who read my posts know I care about our planet and the natural world. Big predators are gatekeepers. They'll tell you what's going on. My focus on one isn't a result of preference only. Life is very complex. If you want to know just a little bit, you got to get to the core of things. We want to attract specialists and those interested in overview. Our aim is to get to good information and to talk for those walking the edge in the invisible world. It's their world and their plight we're interested in. Not something else. Ok?
@peter,
I know who started it, but I feel it shouldn't matter. It's very easy to get sucked into such flame wars where an actual informational debate is never the real intention. When you know a poster for some time, you begin to see a pattern in their posting. That's when you should make a decision not to indulge them again. It feels like the stupid flame wars of the older forums are continuing here, only difference being each side is posting on their respective forums. We are better than that, and to respond to the other side would mean stooping to their level. Wasn't one of the aims of this forum was to do away with any kind of personal attacks and endless discussions that are of no real benefit to anyone? If someone posts crap on the other forum, let them. The dignified approach would be to not respond but present valuable information and intelligent discussions around that. People are smart enough to see the truth. 
I think both @peter and @Shardul is right at their points
Once you have given a proper answer you don't need to keep doing it again and again, It like wrestling with pig in mud, He will enjoy it while you will become dirtier and dirtier. Shardul wanted that do not bother to reply, keep your good work which I fully agree and according to peter you should reply to make your stand clear to your opponents, I also agree with it but not everytime, once and given proper reply just leave that place
I agree with all, I just thought that people who view both of our sites deserved the right to know what they were getting in to.
I truly tried to show the great posts that peter and guate did for both avenues, because I know that both truly enjoy big cats and animals in general. I think that interaction between both would only serve a greater good, its a shame that "certain" peoples emotions got in the way of genuinely good information being shared across the board. Oh well, I think overall it was a good experience and probably brought some new eyes to both places. I don't wish any hard feelings towards most of the forum members there, they have a lot of good posters there, I obviously had an issue with censoring the information from one side only, but other than that, I wish them nothing but the best. But this is the place for me for obvious reasons. Keep up the great work, I think you guys are definitely going in the right direction to make this place a real library of information for any biologist or novice seeking to inform ones self on a new passion. Regards, (10-01-2015, 08:15 AM)Shardul Wrote: @peter, Agreed again. But it doesn't hurt to tell 'm you saw them once in a while. Furthermore, it is a fact some information was exchanged between the shells. The details on the method to measure tigers in Chitwan, Sichote-Alin and Nagarahole were interesting. Most unfortunately, they roughly confirmed what was concluded some years ago. I can't use the measurements (for comparisons between then and now), but they can be used to compare the size of today's tigers in the regions mentioned. To a degree. Anyhow. The case was closed. I propose to return to information. I will correct the info on the 3 male Russian brown bears first, of course. 
@GuateGojira, I think this is the best place for the post you mentioned in the "estimating size based..." thread.
I made the change @tigerluver.
================================================================================================================= Hello guys. @peter and @tigerluver, I will like to post something about the length of Amur tigers by the S.T.P. New evidence presented by @WaveRiders suggest that in fact, Amur tigers were measured "over curves", this came from the email of Dr Miquelle, specifically where he says that they pressed the tape in all points. However, the email also state that the animal was put in a straight position, which I found very contradictory. Other thing, I have found a few other pictures of Amur tigers been measured, and the taped is by no means pressed in the body, but only put loosely over the body, and the tiger is not in straight line. I possess 5 pictures and NONE presents the specific method described by Dr Miquelle. Is possible that all these people measured in they own forms? I leave the question open. A good fact is that there is no such thing like "crystal clear facts", because the theory in the books is sometimes different that the practice in the field. In this point, I think that the effort of Wave is somewhat futile, because it doesn't matter how many books are available on the matter, if at the end people in the field accommodate they work with the circumstances. Even the records of great cats "between pegs" presents they own "fishy" circumstances. There is no such thing as "100% perfect straight line" or "100% perfect over curves" method, it all depends of the people that employs it and the present witnesses are the only ones able to make a "fair" judgement. Our statements about them, at the end, are just "good guesses". I have a video where the height of a female Amur tigers is taken, and it was not make "over curves" nor "straight line". The measurement is just taken "by sections" of the arm, from the paw to the point of the shoulder. In my opinion, this underestimate the real height of the animal. So, this makes me doubt about the accuracy of some of those measurements. Is not a secrete that I based my original statements of the Amur tiger measurements in the document of Kerley et al. (2005). If you read correctly the document, the paragraph suggest the use of the method of Nowell & Jackson (1996) and the book of "Terrestrial Mammals" is just the source for the quantity of measurements to take, but not specifically or only for cats. However, the personal email of Waveriders and the 5 different pictures and the video, suggest me that those measurements were taken with different methods, and not with "standardized" methods like the "ideal" world that Wave wants to present (no offense, ok?). I think, at the end, that "over curves" is the best choice for Amur tigers, taking in count the variability of methods that I have saw with them. I will change this in my Amur tiger tables, which open the opportunity of add new weights, if someone have a few over there. Now, about the Nepal tigers, Dr Sunquist is quite clear, they were measured in straight line, and his description in his email to me, Wave, BoldChamp and Tiger Lover, is the same. Is quite comparable as the method "between pegs", and taking in count that the animals were not stretched like the dead ones, I guess that the results were probably the same. About the Nagarahole tigers, Dr Sunquist was there with the first male and the only female, and he told to Wave that he saw no difference in the form of measuring. So, it is obvious that they used the same method, and this don't contradict the statements of the book of Riney (1982). Dr Karanth mention "along the curves", but in any point he says that he pressed the tape in all points nor that he followed all the curves on the back. A tape along the curves of a cat in straight line give a very straight result, specially with unstretched specimens (I have videos of that now). And taking in count the testimony of Dr Sunquist, which was actually there and saw the entire procedure, I can conclude that Dr Karanth used the same method and that the 5 males and 7 females measured in these two areas where taken in the form described by Dr Sunquist. I am going to found the video and you can tell me if I leave it here, or in another topic. Greetings to all. |
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