Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Luipaard]

@Pckts 

Quote:The weight was obtained, if they want to specify 2 captures or not is up to them. Nothing changes the fact that those weights were actually measured and verified. 

That's not an answer why the creators of the table decided to stick with the higher ones even if a more recent one is lower and likely more towards an empty cat.

Quote:In regards to what you deem as "dubious" 
It's absolutely very possible that they are larger today than in the past.
You also don't seem to have an understanding about the past. The modern weights *after the illegalization of hunting Jaguars and Caimans* is what they are talking about. You had millions of Caiman and thousands of Jaguars hunted to near extinction, then protections were put in place and thus their numbers slowly began to grow to where they are today. And as you have seen, Jaguars like Lopez and Joker and many others have obtained larger sizes. 
The fact remains, females and males have grown in weight. 

This table says females haven't grown in size at all unlike males who increased in size towards 115kg. But then it dropped twice so there's that. I advice you to watch the latest video of Kevin Richardson, 'The Lion Whisperer'. He was in the Pantanal and the guide said a big male in this area is around 110-120kg. The area was Porto Jofre. That's weird how a big male is the size of an average male according to the selfmade table isn't it?

Quote:Once again, 115kg wasn't confirmed by the vet hence the fact that he wasn't there during capture.

It is confirmed personally to you, me and @AndresVida . Plus the study specifically mentions Iman Memarian as the source (personal communication) and is included in the weight chart.

Quote:Did I?
Do you have any details on this male?
Do you even know what reference they are referring too?  
Is there a reason no actual body dimensions are given?
Let's shine a little light on it...
The reference is to Fred Harringtons book "A guide to mammals of iran"
Which is as it sounds, an encyclopedia. I would wager the weight is a round number mentioned for the species. But don't worry, I've bought the book and will confirm as such. But again, you use these claims without doing due diligence because you're desperate to find a 90kg Persian. 
And of course you can see the same figures in round numbers quoted in the Encylopaedia Iranica 
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/leopa...s-palang-1
The Persian leopard from the northern regions of the country is certainly one of the largest among the many races of leopards in the world. Height at shoulder is to 75 cm; the weight 60-90 kg

Good that you bought the book, perhaps there's additional data worth sharing. But I'm not desperate, I simply found this overview in a study and the table's title clearly says: "Weight and sizes of leopards in other studies". I'm assuming this is a weight of a specific male otherwise they could've included the minimum as well but they didn't. Encyclopedia's gather info from somewhere so it's possible this isn't just a rounded figure. Until you find out more, this male is mentioned in a study and according to said study they gathered it via another study.

Quote:How about this image?
compared to this one?
There is nothing "clear" about it and in fact, his wet abdomen looks more like when he was captured as opposed to euthanized.

Just compare the one's I posted and it's clear that his body condition wasn't "fine". I posted two photos; one at the beginning of the operation and one at the very end.

Quote:When an animal is brought in, certainly not on site unless they have a scale on hand. Like was is used during certain Jaguar captures which of course is verified and even shown on video. 

When one is "brought in", that is with a veterinarian who should have a scale at his disposal. I'm not just saying this, I was told by someone who's closely related to veterinarians and rangers in Kruger. It's a standard procedure that they gather all data and sent it to organisations like Panthera.

Quote:It's mentioned in the study to be disregarded. 

But included in the weight chart. Not fully disregarded and the weight is confirmed by Iman Memarian. Seriously, how long will you go in circles?

Quote:There is nothing to reread, the frequency favors the female Jaguars. And again you don't have a clue which if any are from Central or South as per mentioned, they are mostly from the north. 

You literally shared 40-50kg males yourself?

Quote:Once again.... the person who wrote the actual study stated it. And the "largest weights" were from 70-88kg. We already have smaller such as M1 and M6 that were under 60kgs and also from the north. 

Then you have a 66kg Male from Chapur-Ghoymeh  and 3 other males who are even smaller than that male all from the north. I'm sure I can find more, especially since they've recorded over 50 Males in the past 15 years that have been killed via road accidents. 

'M1 and M6' are from Tandoureh National Park which isn't located in northern Iran.

Quote:What are you talking about? They're less than 200 miles away from one another. Leopards will easily make that trek between the locations. 

What I'm telling you are facts. Tandoureh National Park does not belong to northern Iran so those males are from a different population. Northern Iranian leopards live in or outside Golestan National Park and Hyrcan forest.

Quote:Once again, it's based off of whatever information he's been given. The populations will have no effect being that close to one another and as I've already shown, we have numerous N. Iran Leopards less than 70kgs and I'd wager there are even more than listed. 

There's a difference in habitat and prey between Tandoureh National Park and Golestan National Park or Hyrcan forest for sure as well as climate. It surely as an effect. It says enough that a young male from Golestan National Park already weighed 64kg, almost as much as an average Persian male in whole of Iran.

Quote:You can't be serious?

We literally have the video of Lopez being weighed as well as confirmation from the ones involved in the weighing and we have Jokers measurements from both captures as well as him being weighed but exceeding the max. While you try and use Harringtons weight as a conclusive 90kg Leopard without provided any such details. The hypocrisy is astounding. 

I'm asking about Lopez' measurements, not his weight of which I'm aware. You demand many criteria for leopards but you're fine with Lopez' weight without measurements. And if I'm not mistaken, lot's of errors occurred with that weight didn't it? Like adding it twice into the table.

Quote:Of course it was, it was specified time and time again. 

You stated this: "You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous."
Not only were you proven wrong with Henschel never seen a Gabonese leopard but you also NEVER mentioned a Pantanal jaguar.

Quote:Based on me going there my self and seeing them, speaking with the guides and tourists as well as communicating with many others who've done the same. Again, you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been. 

And who cares about Henschel, we literally just discussed his document of seeing few in 10 years or whatever he said. Compared to Marlon who's seen 100s.

That argument is getting really old - you having been there and others not. Still your argument is overall not true. You don't just see leopards every trip. Especially males who are elusive and have such a wide territory and are patrolling or resting usually. Again I say overall because there are exceptions (e.g. Yala National Park).
You're right, who cares about Henschel, a leading big cat expert? Dutoit has (maybe) seen more leopards so he's the one we should trust more even though he doesn't publish scientific studies unlike Henschel.
Really, this is giving me those vibes again when Henschel was called a volunteer. What an ignorance.

Quote:I'm not sure if you're aware but that's called experience and generally the more you have the more knowledgeable you become on the subject. 

I'm not sure if you're aware but Henschel has been longer active and doing much more than just posting Instagram posts:
"August 2000-2006: PI Forest Leopard Study, for Wildlife Conservation Society - Gabon. I assessed the impact of anthropogenic disturbances (most importantly bushmeat hunting) on leopard numbers, distribution and diet in the Congo Basin rainforest.

January 2009: Completed PhD at Göttingen University, Germany. Thesis title: The conservation biology of the leopard in Gabon: status, threats and strategies for conservation."
Instagram exists since 2010 just for your information.
If you have questions regarding leopards, Henschel should be the one you go to rather than Dutoit. I really hope you think the same.

Quote:Once again, they weren't captured by him, nor is there any details about the actual leopards. So you're attempt at discrediting whether they were obtained by hunting or another mean is meaningless. 

Do you have every detail of every jaguar skull? If so, please provide evidence that sub-adult jaguaresses were included for the average measurements which you claimed. As you can see, I can play this game too.

Quote:Once again, there was no correlation to CBL in TL. Hence why you cannot claim a record length based off a record CBL.

So once again, the 2nd longest CBL on the list is still shorter than 7 other skulls on the list. There is absolutely no way you can claim that the longest CBL which is only 8mm longer than the 2nd longest one is somehow 19mm longer in TL. Proof of this is the fact that you have skulls that are 10mm shorter than others in CBL while being actually longer than the other skull which is 10mm more in CBL. 

It's pretty simple; there is indeed no correlation to condylobasal length in total length. However, the shortest condylobasal length was 243 mm with a total length of 277 mm. A skull with a condylobasal length of 264 mm isn't going to be smaller. Added to that, Chui shared additional measurements and it's in each and every way a bigger skull than no.2 in the list which comes from the same study. You cannot deny that this skull is longer than the no.2 skull (281 mm). If you do, I suggest we add more users of this forum to this debate who have more knowledge on skulls. I'll then share the full overview of skulls between skull no.1 and no.2. Sounds fair?

Quote:This is clown statement.

I'm here right now proving you wrong.

Starting to use insults? Bad attitude but it does indicate you know it's true. I can share the link of the debate? You literally decided to abandon it so yes, you fled the scene.

Quote:I couldn't care less about a table you create knowing how bad you are skewing data and hiding information. 

The data is solely from scientific studies. You don't care about these tables but prefere selfmade jaguar tables over scientific ones? Again what an ignorance OR you're being selective which could also be the case.

Quote:Because he wasn't in the pantanal specifically talking about pantanal jaguars?

He literally posted the hasthtag #pantanal twice? What are you talking about? Just admit he's vague with his statements which is solely so he can boast the animals and his Instagram posts. Reply