Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Pckts]

@Luipaard 

Quote:Doesn't it make the slighest sense that it's better to use the lower weight? It is likely that the animal has no or few stomach content at this point. But for the jaguar table, several males have their higher weight given.

Here are some remarks I have:

-For one; why take the highest figure of male Matheus (134kg) instead of his most recent one (118kg)? Also the lowest figure will likely lean towards an empty cat unless visible wounds are there in that case it's due to bad health condition.

-Same story with male Tupã; they went with the 123kg figure despite him being captured as a mature male at 107kg. He was a mature male so how is he going to gain 16kg of muscles as a mature male? Impossible, it's just stomach content.

-Again the same story, this time with male Brutos; he gained 10kg weight in a few months. That must be due to stomach content but there he is in the table with his heaviest figure.

-Next is Lopez, the outlier or record male; his figure dates from 2008, I don't know what they see as old and modern, but the rest of the figures are fairly recent making Lopez' figure kinda old.

-Lastly is the dubious claim of Pantanal jaguars being bigger today than in the past. The table contradicts itself; the heaviest male Lopez isn't from the present or recent past yet he's still the biggest one in the table. Also the average weight changed over the course of months; they out of nowhere averaged 115kg (based on this selfmade table), then 111kg and now it's at 108kg. Moving on to the Pantanal jaguaresses; they barely got bigger compared to this table. I thought they've grown bigger? Or does it only apply to males for some reason?

The weight was obtained, if they want to specify 2 captures or not is up to them. Nothing changes the fact that those weights were actually measured and verified. 

In regards to what you deem as "dubious" 
It's absolutely very possible that they are larger today than in the past.
You also don't seem to have an understanding about the past. The modern weights *after the illegalization of hunting Jaguars and Caimans* is what they are talking about. You had millions of Caiman and thousands of Jaguars hunted to near extinction, then protections were put in place and thus their numbers slowly began to grow to where they are today. And as you have seen, Jaguars like Lopez and Joker and many others have obtained larger sizes. 
The fact remains, females and males have grown in weight. 

Quote:For the weight table, 91kg was the maximum given but for the weight chart, 115kg is the maximum so in either case the 95kg isn't used. It's merely mentioned in a Facebook post plus that was the circa weight at the time of euthanasia anyway. 115kg was his weight at the time of his capture, confirmed by the veterinarian. That's the story of this male.

Once again, 115kg wasn't confirmed by the vet hence the fact that he wasn't there during capture.

Quote:You forgot the 1977 study where a 90kg male is mentioned. 

Did I?
Do you have any details on this male?
Do you even know what reference they are referring too?  
Is there a reason no actual body dimensions are given?
Let's shine a little light on it...
The reference is to Fred Harringtons book "A guide to mammals of iran"
Which is as it sounds, an encyclopedia. I would wager the weight is a round number mentioned for the species. But don't worry, I've bought the book and will confirm as such. But again, you use these claims without doing due diligence because you're desperate to find a 90kg Persian. 
And of course you can see the same figures in round numbers quoted in the Encylopaedia Iranica 
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/leopa...s-palang-1
The Persian leopard from the northern regions of the country is certainly one of the largest among the many races of leopards in the world. Height at shoulder is to 75 cm; the weight 60-90 kg

Quote:Have you seen the all the photos available? This is him during his capture, clearly full:

*This image is copyright of its original author

How about this image?
compared to this one?

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is nothing "clear" about it and in fact, his wet abdomen looks more like when he was captured as opposed to euthanized. 

Quote:When a wild animal is brought in, it is because they can partly conclude if it's healthy based on their body weight. It's not when they have to operate in the wild. For Pantanal jaguars this seems possible every time though.

 
When an animal is brought in, certainly not on site unless they have a scale on hand. Like was is used during certain Jaguar captures which of course is verified and even shown on video. 

Quote:How's the 95kg figure? It's from a Facebook post whereas the 115kg figure is mentioned in the study, included in the weight chart and confirmed by the veterinarian?

It's mentioned in the study to be disregarded. 

Quote:Reread what I stated. Northern Iranian males will best or surpass them. The frequency in % is already close despite the sample which included 40-50kg males from Central and South Iran. This is called probability calculation.

There is nothing to reread, the frequency favors the female Jaguars. And again you don't have a clue which if any are from Central or South as per mentioned, they are mostly from the north. 

Quote:We don't have any info except the excluded male yet you know for a fact that most of the weights are from northern Iranian males? Can you provide evidence to back up this claim?

Also how can they average 70kg in the North when their weight range is 70-88kg? Doesn't that mean that the smallest males weigh around 70kg already?

Once again.... the person who wrote the actual study stated it. And the "largest weights" were from 70-88kg. We already have smaller such as M1 and M6 that were under 60kgs and also from the north. 
Then you have a 66kg Male from Chapur-Ghoymeh  and 3 other males who are even smaller than that male all from the north. I'm sure I can find more, especially since they've recorded over 50 Males in the past 15 years that have been killed via road accidents. 

Quote:Tandoureh National Park isn't regarded as northern Iran but northeastern Iran near Turkmenistan. Northern Iran consists of the provinces Gilan, Mazandaran en Golestan and the environment is forest habitat (Hyrcanian forests). Not saying they don't grow big but the absolute biggest are from northern Iran specifically. Lowest weight from this region is 64kg and was a young male.

What are you talking about? They're less than 200 miles away from one another. Leopards will easily make that trek between the locations. 

Quote:If his estimation is based on males including those from Tandoureh National Park, then yes it's possible is stays at only 70kg. But that's merging populations. See above what is meant with northern Iranian leopards.

Yes that small sample indicates mature males are larger than the average weight.

Once again, it's based off of whatever information he's been given. The populations will have no effect being that close to one another and as I've already shown, we have numerous N. Iran Leopards less than 70kgs and I'd wager there are even more than listed. 

Quote:There are weights where just a figure was given after someone asked for it when they saw an Instagram photo of a captured jaguar. Including the word "around" which meant they had to ask again after a long time to get actual confirmation. You absolutely do not have all these 'requirements' of yours. If so give me the measurements of the outlier Lopez. Or Joker's weight and not the 'at least X' figure.

You can't be serious?
We literally have the video of Lopez being weighed as well as confirmation from the ones involved in the weighing and we have Jokers measurements from both captures as well as him being weighed but exceeding the max. While you try and use Harringtons weight as a conclusive 90kg Leopard without provided any such details. The hypocrisy is astounding. 

Quote:It was never about Pantanal jaguars. You stated Henschel had never seen "a jaguar". Henschel says Gabonese males "look more like jags" because of their build. Nobody is bringing up Pantanal jaguars in this case.

Of course it was, it was specified time and time again. 

Quote:You see leopards almost every trip? Based on what? Seeing is one is for many people one of their highlights because of how unique it is. That's the general consensus of course because in Yala National Park it's fairly easy to spot one due to them being less elusive and the high concentration of leopards in the park.

Henschel has spotted leopards himself as well but not doing this for a paycheck. Remember the photo of a leopard in Benin taken by Henschel himself? 

 

Based on me going there my self and seeing them, speaking with the guides and tourists as well as communicating with many others who've done the same. Again, you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been. 

And who cares about Henschel, we literally just discussed his document of seeing few in 10 years or whatever he said. Compared to Marlon who's seen 100s.

Quote:Also seeing more leopards doesn't mean you're more knowledgeable. Henschel has studies under his name, he still gets citations in newer studies. Henschel is an authority on the subject.

I'm not sure if you're aware but that's called experience and generally the more you have the more knowledgeable you become on the subject. 

Quote:The skulls from the 2013 study from Van Neer were measured by themselves. Of course the skulls are from musuem or private collections. The origin of the measurements are scientific, that is what matters.

Once again, they weren't captured by him, nor is there any details about the actual leopards. So you're attempt at discrediting whether they were obtained by hunting or another mean is meaningless. 

Quote:The shortest condylobasal length was 243 mm with a total length of 277 mm but in this case it's 264 mm which is a big difference. No chance that the difference between the two is only 10 cm for this skull. Also the second longest skull is as wides as the no.1 but the complete measurements are available and have been shown to you; this skull was superior in every department - it's a bigger skull so the length is no less than 281 mm.

Once again, there was no correlation to CBL in TL. Hence why you cannot claim a record length based off a record CBL.
So once again, the 2nd longest CBL on the list is still shorter than 7 other skulls on the list. There is absolutely no way you can claim that the longest CBL which is only 8mm longer than the 2nd longest one is somehow 19mm longer in TL. Proof of this is the fact that you have skulls that are 10mm shorter than others in CBL while being actually longer than the other skull which is 10mm more in CBL. 

Quote:Yes you fled the scene on another forum. The debate back then was which cat produced +80kg specimens more often (male leopard vs jaguaress). All you did was bring up Pantanal jaguaresses who are just a fraction of the entire population. I can rely on multiple populations in different countries and even continents whereas you at best can rely on two populations in Brazil and one in Venezuela.

It's a very debatable topic but I was never proven to be wrong.

This is clown statement.
I'm here right now proving you wrong.

Quote:I created these two tables of similar-sized male leopards and jaguars:

I couldn't care less about a table you create knowing how bad you are skewing data and hiding information. 
Hence this absurd statement below

Quote:Can I now yell that male leopards are "just about the same size as lionesses, not too far off"? After all male jaguars are according to Dutoit. See what I mean with these vague statements?

Because he wasn't in the pantanal specifically talking about pantanal jaguars? Reply