There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
Quote:Not to mention that he’s seen far fewer Jaguars compared to Leopards and yet he still feels the need to talk about it. He also uses words like “dwarf” which is indicative of a large size discrepancy.
I told you before; it's a vague statement. That jaguaress isn't going to dwarf every male leopard. She won't even dwarf a male from Masai Mara, for example. But she will dwarf many males from different subspecies. I find it disappointing that he feels the need to exaggerate. Would you be okay if I post a photo of a huge Persian male and claim he dwarfs a jaguaress? Because both related species can dwarf each other as their weights overlap. Again this is only because he has to entertain his followers.
Quote:It matters that a dying Persian leopard still weighed 95kg while weighing 115kg with stomach content. We know the full story behind this Persian male thanks to Iman Memarian who was kind enough to give further information. Do you decide to ignore the other weights because it surpasses the biggest Pantanal jaguaresses? Just wondering because even confirmation from a first-hand source doesn't seem to convince you.
We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted. The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.
Quote:This is totally irrelevant but let's play along. I guarantee you that Persian leopards in northern Iran match Pantanal jaguaresses in terms of average weight. They've already bested them in terms of maximum weight after all. Regarding frequency it's the same story; Persian male leopards average 66kg in Iran. This includes 40-50kg males from the south and the centre. In northern Iran they're supposed to be bigger thus they'll weigh more on average. Scientists all agree on this and have logical explanations for this - e.g. prey abundance and a colder environment. A young male already weighed 64kg so you can be sure that adult males will weigh on average at least 70kg. The odds of seeing an 80-100kg male in this region is much higher than you think.
Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less. Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.
The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %. You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?
Quote:I'd like to know which male leopards are the largest he's ever seen. Your 2 different occasions are simple; in one he claims a jaguaress is at least as big as the biggest male leopard he's ever seen, perhaps bigger who knows. That's it. In the other post he's simply boasting the jaguars because he must make sure his followers are interested and amazed. I still don't know to what leopard I must compare this jaguaress with. He's talking about the biggest males he has ever seen, but he hasn't been to Central Africa or Iran so we're not talking about the biggest males in the world. That's a certainty.
Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then.
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments.
Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.
Quote:We know the full story yet there's never been weights provided, post mortem info presented or any other confirmation from anyone else involved. On top of all other discrepancies provided and quoted.
The study where the 115kg male is mentioned, is a study from Farhadinia himself. The one you later in this post like to refer to. They excluded him from the table but included him in the weight chart. It appears they took the figure serious.
Quote:The outlier weight means little since we have an abundance of verified weights for bot and again the facts are the facts.
Call it what you want; this leopard's figure bests any jaguaress' figure thus male leopards grow bigger than jaguaresses in terms of maximum weight. Indeed, facts are facts.
Quote:Your personal guarantee means nothing. We have average weights from N. Iran and their weights are less.
We do not have average weights of nothern Iranian male leopards. We have some verified ones and the lowest is currently a young male of 64kg. Others are; 66kg, 70kg, 86kg, 88kg & 115kg. I'm sure the higher figures of the chart in the study also originate from nothern Iran but my personal guarantee means nothing.
Quote:Hence why you have Mohammad Farhadinia specifically stating that Northern males average 70kg as well as the largest weight verified to Kambiz Baradarani as being 88kg.
Like I said before, that same Farhadinia decided to include the 115kg male in the weight chart, the leopard being captured in... northern Iran. And I appreciate you and Baradarani's conversation because he gave us additional data including the 88kg male but that doesn't mean it's the maximum weight ever recorded for a male in northern Iran obviously. Prime example is once again the 115kg male.
Quote:The end story again was that no matter the population, female Pantanal Jaguars averaged more and did so on a higher %. You've been proved wrong on this how many times now?
I still believe Persian male leopards from northern Iran and Pantanal jaguaresses overlap in weight and that they'll weigh equally on average. Again, the biggest male leopard from this region is bigger than the biggest Pantanal jaguaress whether you acknowledge the male's weight or not.
Let's try and compare them again but via skull measurements;
Pantanal jaguaresses measured the following average: 257,6 mm x 172,5 mm (16,93")
Persian male leopards measured the following average: 248 mm x 162 mm (16,14")
The difference isn't that big yet the Persian leopard figures are not 100% certain from males only + they're across the whole country of Iran therefore not from a specific population. Imagine how adult males from northern Iran specifically would score.
Quote:Sounds like you need to ask him your own questions then.
Your speculation on why he says what he says is meaningless, don't put your personal feelings towards his comments.
I will eventually ask him, provided that he answers, and tell you the outcome. Same like I did with Philipp Henschel's statement that Gabonese male leopards look like jaguars. Remember when you and Pantherine/Balam hypothesized that it could be due to similar coat pattern? I then personally asked Henschel and he said it was because of their bulk. Your response? "He's never seen jaguars IRL so he doesn't know what he's talking about". You guys said that about a leading expert from Panthera. I'll never forget that moment + you downgraded him to a mere volunteer. But hey, Marlon Dutoit is an authority right?
Quote:Lastly, the biggest males throughout E/S Africa equal or surpass any male measured in Iran/C. Africa, whether skull size or body weight, that excuse holds no water.
Debatable especially when comparing apples to oranges in your case (scientific data vs hunter records). But even then Dutoit has not seen the biggest male leopards ever. For example, do you really think that because Dutoit has been to Kenya, he's seen the biggest male leopards out there? Dutoit has likely been to Masai Mara like the majority but do you even realise that the biggest Kenyan male leopards are found in Mt. Kenya, Aberdare National Park and/or Lake Nakuru National Park? Male leopards spotted at Mt. Kenya were described as spotted lions by locals to give you an idea:
Quote:The study where the 115kg male is mentioned, is a study from Farhadinia himself. The one you later in this post like to refer to. They excluded him from the table but included him in the weight chart. It appears they took the figure serious.
Again, the "study" did not measure any of the leopards. Hence why they are per comm. and Farhadinia specicially mentions which were presented to him, Not to mention, it's also why we have 0 information on the 91kg Leopard.
Quote:Call it what you want; this leopard's figure bests any jaguaress' figure thus male leopards grow bigger than jaguaresses in terms of maximum weight. Indeed, facts are facts.
Except for average weights or verified maximum weights.
Like you've been shown multiple times
Female Pantanal Jaguars average higher weights than any leopard sub species on earth.
They have more individuals who reach 80-100kg and do so with far less of the amount of cats measured compared to Leopards.
They have the largest "verified" weight I.E. real data presented like measurements from biologist capturer on site or post mortem reports.
Quote:We do not have average weights of nothern Iranian male leopards. We have some verified ones and the lowest is currently a young male of 64kg. Others are; 66kg, 70kg, 86kg, 88kg & 115kg. I'm sure the higher figures of the chart in the study also originate from nothern Iran but my personal guarantee means nothing.
You literally just quoted Farhadinia and he specifically mentions their average. Your skewed figures mean little compared to his data base.
Quote:Like I said before, that same Farhadinia decided to include the 115kg male in the weight chart, the leopard being captured in... northern Iran. And I appreciate you and Baradarani's conversation because he gave us additional data including the 88kg male but that doesn't mean it's the maximum weight ever recorded for a male in northern Iran obviously. Prime example is once again the 115kg male.
It also showed that there isn't even a persian Leopard to date that has reached 90kgs from 1st hand experience.
Quote:I still believe Persian male leopards from northern Iran and Pantanal jaguaresses overlap in weight and that they'll weigh equally on average. Again, the biggest male leopard from this region is bigger than the biggest Pantanal jaguaress whether you acknowledge the male's weight or not.
Let's try and compare them again but via skull measurements;
Overlap, sure but the P. Female Jaguar is the much larger cat on average and at verified maximums.
Quote:Pantanal jaguaresses measured the following average: 257,6 mm x 172,5 mm (16,93") Persian male leopards measured the following average: 248 mm x 162 mm (16,14")
The difference isn't that big yet the Persian leopard figures are not 100% certain from males only + they're across the whole country of Iran therefore not from a specific population. Imagine how adult males from northern Iran specifically would score.
Excuses
The same can be said that the female jags may not be all adults. Nor is the protocol the same since some Leopard skulls for sure where measured the Ward/Sci way while the female jags measured the proper way.
Quote:I will eventually ask him, provided that he answers, and tell you the outcome. Same like I did with Philipp Henschel's statement that Gabonese male leopards look like jaguars. Remember when you and Pantherine/Balam hypothesized that it could be due to similar coat pattern? I then personally asked Henschel and he said it was because of their bulk. Your response? "He's never seen jaguars IRL so he doesn't know what he's talking about". You guys said that about a leading expert from Panthera. I'll never forget that moment + you downgraded him to a mere volunteer. But hey, Marlon Dutoit is an authority right?
Do you even know what you're saying?
You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous.
Do you honestly not see the difference?
Quote:Debatable especially when comparing apples to oranges in your case (scientific data vs hunter records). But even then Dutoit has not seen the biggest male leopards ever. For example, do you really think that because Dutoit has been to Kenya, he's seen the biggest male leopards out there? Dutoit has likely been to Masai Mara like the majority but do you even realise that the biggest Kenyan male leopards are found in Mt. Kenya, Aberdare National Park and/or Lake Nakuru National Park? Male leopards spotted at Mt. Kenya were described as spotted lions by locals to give you an idea:
You really just quoted a "Pro Mountaineer" as a valid source?
Again, because you don't go to these places you don't realize the embellishment you can get from locals, whether translation issues or just lack of 1st hand experience.
At the end of the day, you twist your criteria to avoid the fact that no matter the location, you have weights, skull size and body measurements that have equaled or surpassed Leopards from the Mountains/C. Africa or Iran. Like the excuse you like to claim about overlapping amongst Persian Males and Female Pantanal Jaguars, you can use the same excuse amongst the African Leopards mentioned.
Quote:Again, the "study" did not measure any of the leopards. Hence why they are per comm. and Farhadinia specicially mentions which were presented to him, Not to mention, it's also why we have 0 information on the 91kg Leopard.
Yes they gathered weights gathered from across the whole country. That selection of weights is as random as it gets. Also, which 91kg male are you talking about?
Quote:Except for average weights or verified maximum weights.
Like you've been shown multiple times
They have the largest "verified" weight I.E. real data presented like measurements from biologist capturer on site or post mortem reports.
How is confirmation from a wildlife veterinarian involved in the rescue of the 115kg male not enough for it to become verified? What more do you want? Jaguar weights from Facebook/Instagram conversations were considered verified in the past?
Quote:Female Pantanal Jaguars average higher weights than any leopard sub species on earth.
They have more individuals who reach 80-100kg and do so with far less of the amount of cats measured compared to Leopards.
That's the current debate isn't it? I believe Persian leopards from northern Iran at least rival Pantanal jaguaresses on average weight and you think otherwise. But how do they have more individuals in that weight range? We have far less weight figures of Persian leopards let alone in northern Iran specifically yet numerous 80-100kg males popped up. The Pantanal jaguar is one of the most studied big cat population ever, it makes sense that data is well present. For Persian leopards we have to rely on dead, wounded or snared ones to get data. In the worst circumstances the Persian leopard proves it can match Pantanal jaguaresses.
Quote:You literally just quoted Farhadinia and he specifically mentions their average. Your skewed figures mean little compared to his data base.
You mean the 66kg global figure? Or where he said to you that a typical male in northern Iran will weigh around 70kg? Also what data base? You said yourself most of his data is gathered so it's not direct data from himself.
Quote:It also showed that there isn't even a persian Leopard to date that has reached 90kgs from 1st hand experience.
Well that's because you don't consider Iman Memarian's messages first-hand despite receiving some yourself. There's three members on this forum who received messages from him of which I couldn't thank him enough. He's a wildlife veterinarian and was there the whole time, how is that not a first-hand experience?
Quote:Overlap, sure but the P. Female Jaguar is the much larger cat on average and at verified maximums.
We're talking about northern Iranian male leopards only. Pantanal jaguaresses are not "much larger" since their average weight differs at max 5kg and the biggest cat will be the Persian leopard. The fact that you don't deem the 115kg verified is subjective because you have the evidence. From a scientific study and from a first-hand source.
Quote:Excuses
The same can be said that the female jags may not be all adults. Nor is the protocol the same since some Leopard skulls for sure where measured the Ward/Sci way while the female jags measured the proper way.
Wait, first you say the Pantanal jaguaresses' skull measurements are incorrect due to possible age merging but at the same time they're measured "the correct way" unlike Persian leopard skulls of which you are sure they measured in a different way? How are those not excuses?
Quote:Do you even know what you're saying?
You trying to compare Henschel who's never seen a Jaguar or possibly even a Gabonese Leopard to Dutoit who's seen 100s of Leopards from all over africa as well as going to the pantanal numerous times and seeing Jags in person is ridicolous. Do you honestly not see the difference?
First of all how do we know Henschel hasn't seen a jaguar? Second, he has seen at least a Gabonese leopard in real life. Credits to Chui for saving this:
""I MAKE AN early start, leaving camp before daybreak. I am in one of the most remote areas I have ever worked – 80 kilometres from the nearest village, deep inside Ivindo National Park. It’s a month since I was dropped off here, alone. My tiny budget didn’t stretch to hiring local field assistants but I do have my satellite phone for emergencies and food provisions for several months.
Today, I set off for the northernmost tip of my 120-square-kilometre study area towards a spot where I’ve seen groups of naive chimpanzees with no fear of humans – a clear sign they have not been hunted for generations.
It’s after walking through the forest for two hours that a movement ahead makes me stop in my tracks. Is it a chimp? After recent rain the mist is still hanging over the abandoned logging road I am following and it is hard to see.
It’s a big animal, roughly chimp-sized. Its slow gait doesn’t fit with the lolloping gait of a chimp though. I wait a few seconds, not moving an inch, as it advances. Squinting, I can make out a massive rounded head, swaying lightly left and right, in rhythm with a powerful, muscular stride.
The mist clears momentarily and, suddenly, I am certain. This is it, the animal I have come to study – a leopard – the apex predator of the African rainforest…
I’ve spent the last month searching for signs of leopards, collecting droppings for dietary analyses and setting up motion-triggered cameras to capture them on film. Now, finally, for the first time I am face-to-face with one!
The leopard is just 50 metres away. It’s a beautiful adult male, possibly the resident male. It keeps on coming. Why? My excitement turns to anxiety as the leopard stops, drops flat on the old road and presses his body to the ground, his massive head lying low between his front paws. Is this hunting behaviour, or has he just spotted me and is trying to conceal himself?
Cat and mouse?
I turn my head to scan the ground for a stick to make me feel less vulnerable. At that moment the animal leaps into the forest to the left side of the road. Now I have a dilemma. Am I the hunted or the hunter? All I know is that there is a very big cat now hiding in the thick vegetation bordering the very road I need to take to reach my destination.
I have been conducting fieldwork in the Gabonese forest for five years and have seen leopards three times, but only from the safety of a car or when working in teams with other researchers. I know I have been close to them on several occasions, sometimes hearing their deep sawing grunts or observing primates and forest duikers go berserk after clearly having spotted their nemesis.
This thought reassures me. If the leopards had wanted to harm me, they could have done so on many occasions. I decide to continue down the road, uneasily scanning the vegetation. I pass the spot where I saw the cat disappear – nothing. I walk for another 50 metres, and then something makes me turn around. There he is, a Panthera pardus, calmly sitting on the road, gazing at me!""
Let's be honest here, Philipp Henschel has much different experiences with leopards than Dutoit does. One came face to face with one on foot while another can safely photograph them from a distance. Not to mention their status in the animal world (i.e. big cat expert vs guide/photographer).
Quote:You really just quoted a "Pro Mountaineer" as a valid source? Again, because you don't go to these places you don't realize the embellishment you can get from locals, whether translation issues or just lack of 1st hand experience.
It's not a valid source. It's an anecdote to confirm big leopards in these regions. Hunter records also confirm their large size as well as the popularity in the pas because these were popular destinations back when hunting was still allowed.
Quote:At the end of the day, you twist your criteria to avoid the fact that no matter the location, you have weights, skull size and body measurements that have equaled or surpassed Leopards from the Mountains/C. Africa or Iran. Like the excuse you like to claim about overlapping amongst Persian Males and Female Pantanal Jaguars, you can use the same excuse amongst the African Leopards mentioned.
No because you have to compare to apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Scientific data supports the claim that Central African and Persian male leopards are the biggest in the world. You cannot compare scientific data with hunter records. In the male leopard vs Pantanal jaguaress-case; in both cases the leopard surpasses the Pantanal jaguaress. Skull data or body weight that is. No matter if you rely on scientific data or hunter records; the male leopard emerges the victor.
Quote:Yes they gathered weights gathered from across the whole country. That selection of weights is as random as it gets. Also, which 91kg male are you talking about?
No, they gathered whatever weights they were provided by ones involved with some sort of the process. This is why some are from taxidermies, others are from vets or biologists who participated in the capture or post mortem. The 91kg alleged weight was the maximum range mentioned on Farhadinia's study yet they go on to give a range in 90-95kg which is mentioned in Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation. Yet the largest specimen verified to them was 88kg. So any of the 90+kg cats haven't been presented in hard copy form. We don't know where they came from or who was responsible for their capture/weight/dimensions. Etc.
In fact, Kambiz Baradarani calls the 95kg male the same as the 115kg male, so using both specimens as separate cats looks to be wrong. He again also mentions the weight of 115kg to be wrong and since the confirmed measurement when he was euthanized was 95kg.
Quote:How is confirmation from a wildlife veterinarian involved in the rescue of the 115kg male not enough for it to become verified? What more do you want? Jaguar weights from Facebook/Instagram conversations were considered verified in the past?
During the Euthanization, not the weighing during the actual capture.
And you just mentioned a wildlife vet in comparison to the jags. The difference being the jags measured were also done so by vets on site but also have proof of measuring, body dimensions, capture dates and protocols used. While we still wait for any measurements for the *115kg* leopard as well as a convoluted story about what weight belongs to when and who was there.
You've already tried to discredit the Jag table and failed miserable, I don't think you really want to go down that road again?
Quote:That's the current debate isn't it? I believe Persian leopards from northern Iran at least rival Pantanal jaguaresses on average weight and you think otherwise. But how do they have more individuals in that weight range? We have far less weight figures of Persian leopards let alone in northern Iran specifically yet numerous 80-100kg males popped up. The Pantanal jaguar is one of the most studied big cat population ever, it makes sense that data is well present. For Persian leopards we have to rely on dead, wounded or snared ones to get data. In the worst circumstances the Persian leopard proves it can match Pantanal jaguaresses.
Wait, so you're switching to them rivaling each other? Who ever said they didn't?
I'm assuming you now admit that Female Pantanal Jaguars reach the 80-100kg weight more often and have more individuals who've done it with far fewer specimens weighed?
In regards to persians, you have plenty to use, measurements and captures. You have the actual ones involved in the studies you try and quote specifically giving you there average as well as specifying the largest weight obtained was less than 90kg's outside of the 95kg male. On top of that, the more specimens captured, the more the weight will drop. Using a limited number of cats and double using weights and only including the largest weights available obviously glorifies their average. The weights obtained were through numerous capture protocols. Some post mortem, some during capture. Snared or not, captured or not means little. All big cats are captured through these means.
Quote:You mean the 66kg global figure? Or where he said to you that a typical male in northern Iran will weigh around 70kg? Also what data base? You said yourself most of his data is gathered so it's not direct data from himself.
Mohammad Farhadinia-
"a prime male will weigh 70kg when younger and 55kg when older. Females will be around 40kg"
"These are from mostly Northern specimens"
The data gathered is from the means presented, the same ones you're quoting. It'd be great to get clarification and verification of total weights, protocols, different capturers etc. Like we have with Jaguars. If you had that there is absolutely no doubt you'd see averages drop even more. But regardless, his claim carries far more weight and knowledge.
Quote:Well that's because you don't consider Iman Memarian's messages first-hand despite receiving some yourself. There's three members on this forum who received messages from him of which I couldn't thank him enough. He's a wildlife veterinarian and was there the whole time, how is that not a first-hand experience?
No, it's because of the same thing every time. Who here has the measurements mentioned?
How about the measurements/weighing at the time of the capture? Do you know which weighing occurrence he is even talking about? Was it for the alleged 115kg? The alleged 95kg? 90kg?
He said he has them, said they'd be provided but to my knowledge, no body has been able to obtain anything.
How about the fact that they used different weights for the same cat on the study?
It's pretty simple, you try and discredit the jaguars mentioned yet they provide actual capture information and protocols while this leopard doesn't.
Quote:We're talking about northern Iranian male leopards only. Pantanal jaguaresses are not "much larger" since their average weight differs at max 5kg and the biggest cat will be the Persian leopard. The fact that you don't deem the 115kg verified is subjective because you have the evidence. From a scientific study and from a first-hand source.
70kg is 10kg less than 80kg which is an average female Pantanal Jaguar. You're talking about a 15% difference in averages. Then added to the common occurrence of female jaguars reaching 80-90kg + compared to the rarity of that for Persians. I'd say a cat that on average is 15% larger is much larger. You want to call it "larger" is up to you. It's subjective in that regard.
Quote:Wait, first you say the Pantanal jaguaresses' skull measurements are incorrect due to possible age merging but at the same time they're measured "the correct way" unlike Persian leopard skulls of which you are sure they measured in a different way? How are those not excuses?
Once again, tell me how Rowland Ward measured his skulls?
I know you remember right? There's persians on there isn't there? Infact you tried to call those skulls "lioness sized" did you not?
The only Jaguar skulls measured and mentioned are from Almeida. Almeida removed the lower Jaw, hence a propensity to have less exaggeration in length.
Is that a wrong assessment?
Did you not mention the same exact thing when it came to SCI skulls used?
Quote:First of all how do we know Henschel hasn't seen a jaguar? Second, he has seen at least a Gabonese leopard in real life. Credits to Chui for saving this:
He's public. His IG, FB, all easily accessible. Nothing on there shows him ever going to Brazil let alone seeing Jaguars. Nothing in his Bio shows him ever going there or seeing them either.
Quote:The leopard is just 50 metres away. It’s a beautiful adult male, possibly the resident male. It keeps on coming. Why? My excitement turns to anxiety as the leopard stops, drops flat on the old road and presses his body to the ground, his massive head lying low between his front paws. Is this hunting behaviour, or has he just spotted me and is trying to conceal himself?
Wonderful, that's great for him. I admit he's now seen a Gabonese Leopard in person.
Quote:Let's be honest here, Philipp Henschel has much different experiences with leopards than Dutoit does. One came face to face with one on foot while another can safely photograph them from a distance. Not to mention their status in the animal world (i.e. big cat expert vs guide/photographer).
Now let's break down this experience.
He saw a fleeting glimpse of a Leopard from 50 meters away, his other expeirence with them over 5 years has to have seen them a total of 3 times from a car. That is a total of 4 cats over a 5 year period.
Do you know how many Leopards Marlon has seen from a few feet away? Do you really want to compare experience here? The fact that you either don't recognize this or just won't acknowledge it tells a lot.
Quote:It's not a valid source. It's an anecdote to confirm big leopards in these regions. Hunter records also confirm their large size as well as the popularity in the pas because these were popular destinations back when hunting was still allowed.
Hunters also record Leopards being as large from other areas too. What's the point?
Quote:No because you have to compare to apples to apples and not apples to oranges. Scientific data supports the claim that Central African and Persian male leopards are the biggest in the world. You cannot compare scientific data with hunter records. In the male leopard vs Pantanal jaguaress-case; in both cases the leopard surpasses the Pantanal jaguaress. Skull data or body weight that is. No matter if you rely on scientific data or hunter records; the male leopard emerges the victor.
Leopards to Leopards is the optimity of apples to apples.
"scientific data doesn't support it."
What are you talking about?
You have skulls from E/S Africa and India that outsize them.
You have weights from E/S Africa that outsize them.
You have measurements from E/S Africa that outsize them.
That is literal scientific data that supports it.
In Leopard v Pantanal F. Jaguar
Skull size at maximum is the same. Yet Female Jaguar skulls average much more, no matter the species an are taller and wider far more often.
Body weight-Jaguars again are larger at maximums or average.
You've tried to play this game, you've lost every time.
Average-Jags
Verified Maximum-Jags
Reaching 80-100kg more often-Jags
Individuals who've reached 80-100kgs-Jags
Mind you this for Pantanal Jaguars vs every single Leopard ever weighed/measured.
Quote:No, they gathered whatever weights they were provided by ones involved with some sort of the process. This is why some are from taxidermies, others are from vets or biologists who participated in the capture or post mortem. The 91kg alleged weight was the maximum range mentioned on Farhadinia's study yet they go on to give a range in 90-95kg which is mentioned in Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation. Yet the largest specimen verified to them was 88kg. So any of the 90+kg cats haven't been presented in hard copy form. We don't know where they came from or who was responsible for their capture/weight/dimensions. Etc.
So you are aware of the origin of the weights? Because I've never read or heard anything from weights belonging to taxidermy specimens for example. Still we are both right; the weights were gathered via first-hand and secondary sources but the weights also originate from anywhere in Iran. Again this includes 40-50kg males from southern and central Iran. The selection is as random as it gets and still they come out on top on average for the leopard species.
Quote:In fact, Kambiz Baradarani calls the 95kg male the same as the 115kg male, so using both specimens as separate cats looks to be wrong. He again also mentions the weight of 115kg to be wrong and since the confirmed measurement when he was euthanized was 95kg.
Are you saying they included one male twice like the jaguar fans did with the jaguar table here on Wildfact? If so please provide evidence. Also, how is the 95kg figure confirmed/verified when that was when they decided to euthanize him? The cat was dying so they put it out of its misery. That's not the right body health condition.
Quote:During the Euthanization, not the weighing during the actual capture.
He was there the whole time, just not at the capture. But there are photos of the capture and clearly all they wanted was to get him out of there. There was no scale or anything so he probably got weighed at the time of his arrival.
Quote:And you just mentioned a wildlife vet in comparison to the jags. The difference being the jags measured were also done so by vets on site but also have proof of measuring, body dimensions, capture dates and protocols used. While we still wait for any measurements for the *115kg* leopard as well as a convoluted story about what weight belongs to when and who was there. You've already tried to discredit the Jag table and failed miserable, I don't think you really want to go down that road again?
I never failed "miserably" plus I would love to debate about the table once more for sure. After all higher figures were added instead of the lower ones which likely means the cat was more empty. If you want, I can go into further detail, no problem.
For jaguars, some just asked for a weight via Facebook/Instagram and the answer was solely the weight or "around" the weight. Quite the exaggeration from you to state that for each individual the protocol and measurements were given.
Quote:Wait, so you're switching to them rivaling each other? Who ever said they didn't?
Rivaling something or besting something, what's the difference? You swear Pantanal jaguaresses outweigh Persian male leopards from northern Iran on average, I say they match each other which means they rival each other.
Quote:I'm assuming you now admit that Female Pantanal Jaguars reach the 80-100kg weight more often and have more individuals who've done it with far fewer specimens weighed?
You have more Pantanal jaguaresses weighed than male Persian leopards and yet the frequency is at least similar. Once again, the Pantanal jaguar is extremely well studied compared to other cats. Their database is unrivaled in terms of weight, which is usually not important for biologists/zoologists/researchers. So I'm not admitting anything, the data for northern Irian male leopards is almost non-existent but we have good indicators to conclude that they can best Pantanal jaguaresses.
Quote:In regards to persians, you have plenty to use, measurements and captures. You have the actual ones involved in the studies you try and quote specifically giving you there average as well as specifying the largest weight obtained was less than 90kg's outside of the 95kg male. On top of that, the more specimens captured, the more the weight will drop. Using a limited number of cats and double using weights and only including the largest weights available obviously glorifies their average. The weights obtained were through numerous capture protocols. Some post mortem, some during capture. Snared or not, captured or not means little. All big cats are captured through these means.
Again please provide evidence that they "double used" a weight. Also that so-called double used weight wasn't included in the calculation of the average weight for Persian male leopards.
While I don't disagree that the average will drop the more individuals are added, you cannot deny that the average will rise if only northern Iranian males are included. The average will range between 70-80kg - similar to Pantanal jaguaresses.
Quote:Mohammad Farhadinia-
"a prime male will weigh 70kg when younger and 55kg when older. Females will be around 40kg"
"These are from mostly Northern specimens"
The data gathered is from the means presented, the same ones you're quoting. It'd be great to get clarification and verification of total weights, protocols, different capturers etc. Like we have with Jaguars. If you had that there is absolutely no doubt you'd see averages drop even more. But regardless, his claim carries far more weight and knowledge.
Like I thought, he basically says an adult male is at least 70kg which isn't so surprising since a young male already weighed 64kg in northern Iran.
Quote:No, it's because of the same thing every time. Who here has the measurements mentioned?
How about the measurements/weighing at the time of the capture? Do you know which weighing occurrence he is even talking about? Was it for the alleged 115kg? The alleged 95kg? 90kg?
He said he has them, said they'd be provided but to my knowledge, no body has been able to obtain anything.
How about the fact that they used different weights for the same cat on the study?
It's pretty simple, you try and discredit the jaguars mentioned yet they provide actual capture information and protocols while this leopard doesn't.
Again why do you care so much about the measurements when jaguar weights are added to a table via Facebook/Instagram conversations? And why do you keep saying they double used this individual?
Quote:70kg is 10kg less than 80kg which is an average female Pantanal Jaguar. You're talking about a 15% difference in averages. Then added to the common occurrence of female jaguars reaching 80-90kg + compared to the rarity of that for Persians. I'd say a cat that on average is 15% larger is much larger. You want to call it "larger" is up to you. It's subjective in that regard.
Pantanal jaguaresses average 76kg, both real data and your precious table tell this. The difference is 5kg at best since northern Iranian male leopards average at least 70kg. This 15% size difference is nothing more than another exaggeration of yours.
Quote:Once again, tell me how Rowland Ward measured his skulls?
I know you remember right? There's persians on there isn't there? Infact you tried to call those skulls "lioness sized" did you not?
The only Jaguar skulls measured and mentioned are from Almeida. Almeida removed the lower Jaw, hence a propensity to have less exaggeration in length.
Is that a wrong assessment?
Did you not mention the same exact thing when it came to SCI skulls used
The measurements are not from Rowland Ward's Records. It is mentioned:
Also the sample sizes differ so they're random just like the weights since the heavies one is 78kg. It is as random as it gets and yet it almost rivals Pantanal jaguaresses' skull measurements on average.
And yes, certain large male leopard skulls are literally lioness-sized.
Quote:He's public. His IG, FB, all easily accessible. Nothing on there shows him ever going to Brazil let alone seeing Jaguars. Nothing in his Bio shows him ever going there or seeing them either.
Do you need to go Brazil to see a jaguar? Also does a person that has seen multiple and different cats really have to see them in order to make a statement? He's a leading expert from Panthera in Central and West Africa. There's almost no higher position in the hierarchy.
Quote:Now let's break down this experience. He saw a fleeting glimpse of a Leopard from 50 meters away, his other expeirence with them over 5 years has to have seen them a total of 3 times from a car. That is a total of 4 cats over a 5 year period. Do you know how many Leopards Marlon has seen from a few feet away? Do you really want to compare experience here? The fact that you either don't recognize this or just won't acknowledge it tells a lot.
The major difference is that Henschel has seen more robust and massive male leopards in real life and via camera trap whereas Dutoit has seen the ones every tourist gets to see. Hence his statement "they all look more like jags" (i.e. Gabonese male leopards). You back Dutoit with his statements but doubt Henschel's one but still, Henschel is a big cat expert and Dutoit is just a guide/photographer.
Quote:Hunters also record Leopards being as large from other areas too. What's the point?
The point is that Marlon Dutoit hasn't seen the biggest male leopards in the world, let alone in Kenya which was an example. In Kenya, leopards from Masai Mara aren't the biggest in the country even though they're good-sized. The majority of tourists visit the Masai Mara and so did/does Dutoit. His statement of that Pantanal jaguaress being as big and if not bigger than the biggest male leopard he ever saw is therefore subjective and doesn't mean that that jaguaress is bigger than every male leopard. That's the point. The Mt Kenya topic is just a prime example to prove this.
Quote:Leopards to Leopards is the optimity of apples to apples.
"scientific data doesn't support it."
What are you talking about?
You have skulls from E/S Africa and India that outsize them.
You have weights from E/S Africa that outsize them.
You have measurements from E/S Africa that outsize them.
That is literal scientific data that supports it.
Based on scientific data, the biggest skull originates from DR Congo, followed by one from Gabon and as a third one from Iran. Can you provide skull measurements via scientific sources or is it via hunter records? Again, apples to apples and not apples to oranges.
Biggest verified weight is the 115kg male whether you 'approve' it or not. It is verified by a first-hand source and that's enough to deem it reliable. It's a scientific source and no weight comes close to it except hunter records. But then we're comparing apples to oranges again.
Quote:In Leopard v Pantanal F. Jaguar
Skull size at maximum is the same. Yet Female Jaguar skulls average much more, no matter the species an are taller and wider far more often.
Body weight-Jaguars again are larger at maximums or average.
Skull size at maximum is the same? Not it isn't. Credits to Chui:
Biggest male leopard skull from scientific source: 290+mm long, 186mm wide from D.R. Congo (Van Neer 2013)
Biggest female jaguar skull from scientific source: 268mm long, 176mm wide from Matto Grasso, Brazil (Nelson and Goldman 1933)
Biggest female jaguar skull from reliable hunting source: 286mm long, 181mm wide from Pantanal, Brazil (Almeida 1990)
I play fair, I'm well aware that Pantanal jaguaresses can have greater skull measurements than the old 1933 score. But even via hunter records the male leopard emerges the victor even via scientific data (apples to oranges).
Quote:You've tried to play this game, you've lost every time.
Average-Jags
Verified Maximum-Jags
Reaching 80-100kg more often-Jags
Individuals who've reached 80-100kgs-Jags
Mind you this for Pantanal Jaguars vs every single Leopard ever weighed/measured.
Persian male leopards vs Pantanal jaguaresses is undecided due to lack of data but existing data supports my claim that Persian male leopards in northern Iran rival them.
Verified weights is in your case subjective since you deny a first-hand source that confirms a 115kg male leopard although gorged. You do however confirm a 95kg weight when the animal had to be euthanized.
Which cat reaches +80kg more often? Please, you literally fled the scene after a while in our debate. +80kg jaguaresses are only found in Brazil and Venezuela whereas +80kg male leopards are found in South Africa, Namibia, Kenya, Iran, India, Sri Lanka and many other countries but we lack data. Or do you think those male leopards in Central Africa walking with lioness-sized skulls weigh less than 80kg?
The jaguar is the 3rd biggest cat overall but there's a great overlap between them and leopards. And male leopards are generally bigger than jaguaresses. Skull data and absolute weights confirm this. One population of jaguaresses isn't going to change that.
Quote:So you are aware of the origin of the weights? Because I've never read or heard anything from weights belonging to taxidermy specimens for example. Still we are both right; the weights were gathered via first-hand and secondary sources but the weights also originate from anywhere in Iran. Again this includes 40-50kg males from southern and central Iran. The selection is as random as it gets and still they come out on top on average for the leopard species.
I've literally posted the weights and specimens used for them
Quote:Are you saying they included one male twice like the jaguar fans did with the jaguar table here on Wildfact? If so please provide evidence. Also, how is the 95kg figure confirmed/verified when that was when they decided to euthanize him? The cat was dying so they put it out of its misery. That's not the right body health condition.
You mean for Jaguars that were actually measured Twice? Or if an error was created, it was actually corrected where as this isn't and get's misrepresented time and time again.
The 95kg isn't verified, just around that when time of euthanasia. The cat wasn't able to be released, his body condition was fine, injury wasn't. In fact he's a bloated specimen as shown, don't make up claims his body condition suffered.
Quote:He was there the whole time, just not at the capture. But there are photos of the capture and clearly all they wanted was to get him out of there. There was no scale or anything so he probably got weighed at the time of his arrival.
Yet there is no confirmation on weighing at the time of capture no photos of a scale on site or weighing process. The idea of getting weighed at time of arrival isn't backed by fact, just assumption.
The only mention was at the time of euthanasia. On top of that, again there has been no presentation of verified measurements or post mortem.
Quote:I never failed "miserably" plus I would love to debate about the table once more for sure. After all higher figures were added instead of the lower ones which likely means the cat was more empty. If you want, I can go into further detail, no problem.
For jaguars, some just asked for a weight via Facebook/Instagram and the answer was solely the weight or "around" the weight. Quite the exaggeration from you to state that for each individual the protocol and measurements were given.
Of course you did, every argument you tried to make was disproven. You desperately trying to discredit Biologists and Vets words via FB or IG yet use the same means for 95kg Leopard is laughable.
The table includes all cats captured, high and low numbers. No weight presented wasn't actually obtained, not to mention no weight presented didn't come with 1st hand confirmation from the ones involved.
Quote:You have more Pantanal jaguaresses weighed than male Persian leopards and yet the frequency is at least similar. Once again, the Pantanal jaguar is extremely well studied compared to other cats. Their database is unrivaled in terms of weight, which is usually not important for biologists/zoologists/researchers. So I'm not admitting anything, the data for northern Irian male leopards is almost non-existent but we have good indicators to conclude that they can best Pantanal jaguaresses.
"similar"
Again you evade the truth, the frequency favors the Jaguars as you are aware. And this is with a much larger specimen pool, which of course would decrease an average, not the other way around.
And the data for N. Iranian males is far from non-existent, you have numerous cats, over double digits in fact.
Quote:Again please provide evidence that they "double used" a weight. Also that so-called double used weight wasn't included in the calculation of the average weight for Persian male leopards.
While I don't disagree that the average will drop the more individuals are added, you cannot deny that the average will rise if only northern Iranian males are included. The average will range between 70-80kg - similar to Pantanal jaguaresses.
No Persian leopard has weighed over 90kg other that the *115kg alleged leopard* according to the ones involved in the study. The max weight is 95kg from said study, the omitted 115kg weight isn't used while the 95kg weight is. Kambriz specifically states they used 95kg for said male and outside of that the largest male used was 88kg.
The average as mentioned from the person responsible from the study is 70kg.
Quote:Like I thought, he basically says an adult male is at least 70kg which isn't so surprising since a young male already weighed 64kg in northern Iran.
No, he said the average weight is 70kg. Don't make up claims, never once did he state "at least."
Quote:Again why do you care so much about the measurements when jaguar weights are added to a table via Facebook/Instagram conversations? And why do you keep saying they double used this individual?
Once again, anything added to the table comes directly from the source. Far more intricate than you using 2nd hand studies that never weighed the cats or even old skull measurements from people who gave no information about them. Let alone protocol, cat involved or so on. You don't hold the same criteria to your leopards while trying to discredit the Jaguars and every time you flaunt your bias intentions.
Quote:Pantanal jaguaresses average 76kg, both real data and your precious table tell this. The difference is 5kg at best since northern Iranian male leopards average at least 70kg. This 15% size difference is nothing more than another exaggeration of yours.
78.31kg https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...#pid134877
You want to bicker over 1.7kg?
Ok, so instead of being 15% larger on average, they are 11% larger. And again this is using scientifically verified cats with a far higher data base.
Quote:The measurements are not from Rowland Ward's Records. It is mentioned:
Also the sample sizes differ so they're random just like the weights since the heavies one is 78kg. It is as random as it gets and yet it almost rivals Pantanal jaguaresses' skull measurements on average.
And yes, certain large male leopard skulls are literally lioness-sized
There you go again...
"Rival"
You mean smaller
The Rowland Wards measurements are SCI protocol, you can't say how any other measurement was taken. In fact you can't say anything about any cat, dimensions, weight, etc. But basing off SCI/Rowland Wards, it's probably safe to assume those leopards were measured in the same way. And since Rowland Wards/SCI both have Cats from Mountanous E. Africa, Iran and C. Africa and all show similar measurements at maximums, it's certainly possible.
Quote:Do you need to go Brazil to see a jaguar? Also does a person that has seen multiple and different cats really have to see them in order to make a statement? He's a leading expert from Panthera in Central and West Africa. There's almost no higher position in the hierarchy.
Pantanal in Brazil so.... Yes you need to go to Brazil to see them.
Having seeing Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, Leopards, the answer is absolutely! You have to see them in person and in their wild setting to make any real comparison when it comes to physical traits.
And lastly, Panthera is a non profit, they bring in researchers who are students or graduates, etc. They are no different than any other Wildlife Conservation program. The only thing that matters is experience. Henschall has experience in C. Africa, he has every right to speak on that. He has no experience in the Pantanal or with Jaguars in general, thus he has no right to speak on them from an expert point of view since he isn't one.
Quote:The major difference is that Henschel has seen more robust and massive male leopards in real life and via camera trap whereas Dutoit has seen the ones every tourist gets to see. Hence his statement "they all look more like jags" (i.e. Gabonese male leopards). You back Dutoit with his statements but doubt Henschel's one but still, Henschel is a big cat expert and Dutoit is just a guide/photographer.
According to him, he's seen 5 Leopards in his life and only one from ground level and even then, it was over 150 feet away. Dutoit has seen 100s and absolutely seen as large or larger Leopards.
What metric do you want to use?
Skull Size?- African Leopards
Body Weight?-African Leopards
And even then, it doesn't matter, just the sheer number of cats Dutoit has seen is going to far out weigh Henschel when talking about Leopards. The idea that out of 100s of Leopards from all over africa can't rival 4-5 Leopards throughout 5 years of observation in C. Africa is non sense.
Lastly, a guide/photographer with that kind of experience is an expert. In fact, when it comes to eye witnessing their behavior and traits, he far surpasses Henschel. Because you've never experienced these places first hand, you have no clue what you're talking about. But once again, no researcher can trek these areas without the help of guides.
Quote:The point is that Marlon Dutoit hasn't seen the biggest male leopards in the world, let alone in Kenya which was an example. In Kenya, leopards from Masai Mara aren't the biggest in the country even though they're good-sized. The majority of tourists visit the Masai Mara and so did/does Dutoit. His statement of that Pantanal jaguaress being as big and if not bigger than the biggest male leopard he ever saw is therefore subjective and doesn't mean that that jaguaress is bigger than every male leopard. That's the point. The Mt Kenya topic is just a prime example to prove this.
Dutoit has been to the Serengeti, Masai Mara, C. Africa, S. Africa and so on.
Henschel has seen 5 leopards *according to that article* If anyone has seen larger leopards, it's Marlon, and it's not even close.
Leopards from the locations he's been too have all produced specimens larger than Leopards from Mt Kenya or C. Africa.
Quote:Based on scientific data, the biggest skull originates from DR Congo, followed by one from Gabon and as a third one from Iran. Can you provide skull measurements via scientific sources or is it via hunter records? Again, apples to apples and not apples to oranges.
No, based on a fan made table.
Rowland Wards is scientific data, and it says otherwise.
Quote:Skull size at maximum is the same? Not it isn't. Credits to Chui:
Biggest male leopard skull from scientific source: 290+mm long, 186mm wide from D.R. Congo (Van Neer 2013) Biggest female jaguar skull from scientific source: 268mm long, 176mm wide from Matto Grasso, Brazil (Nelson and Goldman 1933) Biggest female jaguar skull from reliable hunting source: 286mm long, 181mm wide from Pantanal, Brazil (Almeida 1990)
Almeida is a scientific source and a far more reliable one than any other mentioned.
And don't make up skull size, the largest measured from the fan made table is 281 x 186mm. The idea that you claim "scientific" yet use a skull that's not even in tact to try and exaggerate maximums is wrong. Then on top of that, you can't even use the cats mentioned on the fan made table. You can't even provide measurement protocols for the skull or the cat used for them while I can provide, weights and measurement protocols for all of Almeidas jaguars.
Quote:Which cat reaches +80kg more often? Please, you literally fled the scene after a while in our debate. +80kg jaguaresses are only found in Brazil and Venezuela whereas +80kg male leopards are found in South Africa, Namibia, Kenya, Iran, India, Sri Lanka and many other countries but we lack data. Or do you think those male leopards in Central Africa walking with lioness-sized skulls weigh less than 80kg?
You literally spent your entire post talking about Pantanal Jaguars, you obviously know those are the cats I'm discussing and it's always been the debate. Stop changing the goal post because you're wrong.
Wait, I am confused.
Weren't there three other 90-95 kg Leopards in this study?
*This image is copyright of its original author
Also, wouldn't good sized male Leopards from Gabon still beat most Leopards in other national parks?
*This image is copyright of its original author
By his account, the 95kg is the alleged 115kg leopard. The max range shows a leopard of 91kg but the largest they were aware of was 88kg. Since the table is a collection of others work, you need real information on the individuals used.
And why would a good sized Gabon leopard beat others?
From Congo Basin-
We have limited weights and they are small.
We have skull sizes that are matched or surpassed from other parts of Africa.
We have estimated body dimensions based off scaling the mirror and they are no different than other Leopads.
Outside of that, there’s only personal opinion.
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Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences
