Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Balam]

(06-28-2021, 10:45 PM)Luipaard Wrote: @Rishi 

Quote:by overlap he probably meant shape-wise amongst the very diverse population in both & not implying that the largest leopards have the same skull size as the 150+ jaguars... Right @Luipaard?

Pretty much yes. I simply disagree with the claim of jaguar skulls being completely different to leopard skulls especially since this claim is nothing more than an opinion but stated like it's a fact. Never have I ever said that the largest leopard skulls are equal in size to the largest jaguar skulls. Isn't it obvious that they overlap in dimensions and overall size? I've posted scientific data to back this up plus added photographs which clearly shows how similar they can be. This isn't a rhino skull we're comparing to a giraffe's; we're comparing two skulls from the same genus who too overlap in body size. If they overlap in body size, they certainly will overlap in skull dimensions too.

I'm not trying to win this debate/argument FYI. I think Balam and I are black and white and we're looking for the grey part to settle this. I think it would be good if more members would chime in.

@Balam 

I asked you some questions which you can expect when you post a (in my opinion) controversial claim, and you decide to reply to me with the forum policies? Like, numerous times? A bit childish to be honest.

Quote:The graph you posted clearly showed that the dimensions in size of jaguar skulls far surpass that of leopards, why would you even think posting that study was going to help your case? But we don't need a graph to tell us that when we know that the skulls of jaguars from the medium to large populations grow much larger on average and maximum dimensions because we have data from multiple studies already attesting to this. 

There is no complete, total, or whole overlap in size when one species dwarfs another one at the extremes. 

The graph clearly shows they overlap. Even the lion overlaps with the jaguar but it's clear that it's mostly lions and tigers & leopards and jaguars who overlap. 

It doesn't matter if they're dwarfed at extremes since an overlap can occur at minimums or averages as well. You're trying everything to dismiss their overlap. From the smallest populations to the maximums of the largest populations. Whatever suits you.

Quote:Prove now that leopard skulls attain the size ranges of jaguars from the Pantanal, Llanos, or Chaco. The word "overlap" is being repeatedly used by this person as if that claim wasn't objectively wrong.

Why do you want me to specifically pick a population, especially ones that suit you? Don't you hate cherry-picking? What's wrong with populations that do completely overlap? Post skull data of Llanos and Chacoan jaguars and we'll see if they overlap. I cannot prove this when data is lacking. 

Quote:You have no way to prove that an adult male Pantanal jaguar would have a similar skull even if it was below average, a skull of those dimensions would likely belong to a sub-adult at best unless you can provide evidence to the contrary by showcasing specific skulls with their live ages dated. Good luck.

And you have no prove that it would belong to a sub-adult. We're going in circles.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I've seen this comparison long before you were around here. This photograph is unfortunately being abused because everyone who posts this, decides to not mention the measurements. The leopard skull is circa 245 mm whereas the jaguar skull is circa 280 mm or in other words; they're everything but similar in size.

Quote:And you decided to divide jaguars by country of origin rather than population as if Pantanal and Caatinga jaguars weren't two completely different populations separated by vast amounts of land in completely different eco-regions with putative scientific recognition as different sub-species (false dilemma), your Pantanal/Caatinga analogy would be equivalent to me comparing a Persian with an Arabian leopard. 

I've shown size variation in Indian leopards as one sample does not decide the size of a whole subspecies. This is the same case when comparing Pantanal jaguars to Caatinga jaguars who both live in the same country.

Persian and Arabian leopards are different subspecies unlike jaguars, who only have one subspecies. It's not exactly the equivalent. An equivalent would be Cape leopards and leopards from the provinces of Limpopo, Mpumalanga or KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa. 

Now show me the differences between those skulls I 'cherry-picked'. After all they're completely different right? Well prove it.

Quote:Pretty much yes. I simply disagree with the claim of jaguar skulls being completely different to leopard skulls especially since this claim is nothing more than an opinion but stated like it's a fact. Never have I ever said that the largest leopard skulls are equal in size to the largest jaguar skulls.

You said that they overlapped "completely", now you are twisting Rishi's point to paint yourself as the misunderstood one. You were very clear from the beginning and very wrong. If they overlapped completely then the largest leopards would have to match the largest jaguars in dimensions and they do not. You made the claim, not mem and unsurprisingly you've failed to prove or back up any of these points.

Quote:This isn't a rhino skull we're comparing to a giraffe's; we're comparing two skulls from the same genus who too overlap in body size. If they overlap in body size, they certainly will overlap in skull dimensions too.

Let's see if we can keep count of the strawmen, here's the first one.

Quote:I asked you some questions which you can expect when you post a (in my opinion) controversial claim, and you decide to reply to me with the forum policies? Like, numerous times? A bit childish to be honest.

There is nothing childish about highlight forum violations when you repeatedly engage in poor reasoning based on preconceived notions and then double down on them repeatedly, even when they are verifiably false and when the data has been shown to you multiple times (deflection fallacy). 

Quote:The graph clearly shows they overlap. Even the lion overlaps with the jaguar but it's clear that it's mostly lions and tigers & leopards and jaguars who overlap. 

What part of the entire dataset available showcasing that the gap between jaguars and leopards is just as big are you not getting? The largest jaguar skulls (not even belonging to the heaviest specimens) on public record far surpass the largest leopard skulls and they do so in averages as well. Do you think that posting a graph and taking it out of context is going to all of a sudden offset the rest of the available data publicized?

Quote:It doesn't matter if they're dwarfed at extremes since an overlap can occur at minimums or averages as well. You're trying everything to dismiss their overlap. From the smallest populations to the maximums of the largest populations. Whatever suits you.

Strawman #2, I've never once said this and once again this breaks the forum rules. Mods?

Quote:Why do you want me to specifically pick a population, especially ones that suit you? Don't you hate cherry-picking? What's wrong with populations that do completely overlap? Post skull data of Llanos and Chacoan jaguars and we'll see if they overlap. I cannot prove this when data is lacking. 

Read what my post says: Prove now that leopard skulls attain the size ranges of jaguars from the Pantanal, Llanos, or Chaco. A range implies a distribution between the smallest to the largest, because it was you who made the claim that leopards and jaguars "completely overlapped" in dimensions, the burden of proof falls on you to prove that they match the largest measurements for jaguars from these populations (a complete overlap). Once again mods, this a circular argument in violation of the forum policies with the dismissal of crucial data.

Quote:I've seen this comparison long before you were around here. This photograph is unfortunately being abused because everyone who posts this, decides to not mention the measurements. The leopard skull is circa 245 mm whereas the jaguar skull is circa 280 mm or in other words; they're everything but similar in size.

Another fallacy, appeal to authority, what does you having had seen this before has anything to do with points being discussed? And how is it being "abused"? What do measurements have anything to do with this since we're comparing skull proportions?. If the jaguar skull were to be scaled down to the leopard's size based on length, the differences in anotomy would remain the same.
One more thing, the skull length of the Central African leopard almost perfectly matches the average for this population, while the skull of the Bolivian jaguar (likely a Chacoan or Yungas specimen) falls well short of the average size of a Pantanal or Llanos jaguar skulls and yet it still dwarfs the leopard skull. Interestingly how your claims of Central African leopards attainting the dimensions of Pantanal jaguars fall apart, especially when we take into consideration that an average-sized skull from the Pantanal of 290mm in length and 195 mm in width would be even larger against that average-sized Central African specimen. Comparing one to two outliers against a population average (and still failing to meet the dimensions of said average) doesn't symbolize an overlap, but I digress.

Quote:I've shown size variation in Indian leopards as one sample does not decide the size of a whole subspecies. This is the same case when comparing Pantanal jaguars to Caatinga jaguars who both live in the same country.

That is not how it works, jaguars are classified as a monophyletic species but that doesn't mean that genetic differences between populations do not exist. And your comparison is completely flawed because national boundaries have no relation to the things that matter in this context which are regional differences based on ecological factors. 
Caatinga jaguars are a dwarfed population because they live in environments with little to no prey to the point that some of the studied specimens from this region have died from starvation @Dark Jaguar knows all about this. The Caatinga environment is completely different from the Pantanal and is separated by a vast savannah known as the Cerrado. These two populations are as different as the Arabian and Persian leopards or Sundarbans and Kaziranga tigers, and I don't know why all of a sudden you're such a puritan when it comes to taxonomical orders when you've complained in the past about how African leopards shouldn't all be lumped into one single subspecies.

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Ultimately you still haven't proven that:

1. Jaguar and leopard skull completely overlap in size. (keyword that's being repeatedly ignored in this discussion: completely)
2. There are minor differences in their skull morphology. (I expect a dissection of the main skull parts from you in this regard and why they are similar)

As I said in the previous post I'm not going to continue going back and forth until this person brings forward sound data to back his claims up instead of lengthy word-salads that have nothing to do with what's being discussed and as shown multiple times are in violation of the forum policies. Reply