Comparing Cats: A Discussion of Similarities & Differences

[Luipaard]

@Rishi 

Quote:by overlap he probably meant shape-wise amongst the very diverse population in both & not implying that the largest leopards have the same skull size as the 150+ jaguars... Right @Luipaard?

Pretty much yes. I simply disagree with the claim of jaguar skulls being completely different to leopard skulls especially since this claim is nothing more than an opinion but stated like it's a fact. Never have I ever said that the largest leopard skulls are equal in size to the largest jaguar skulls. Isn't it obvious that they overlap in dimensions and overall size? I've posted scientific data to back this up plus added photographs which clearly shows how similar they can be. This isn't a rhino skull we're comparing to a giraffe's; we're comparing two skulls from the same genus who too overlap in body size. If they overlap in body size, they certainly will overlap in skull dimensions too.

I'm not trying to win this debate/argument FYI. I think Balam and I are black and white and we're looking for the grey part to settle this. I think it would be good if more members would chime in.

@Balam 

I asked you some questions which you can expect when you post a (in my opinion) controversial claim, and you decide to reply to me with the forum policies? Like, numerous times? A bit childish to be honest.

Quote:The graph you posted clearly showed that the dimensions in size of jaguar skulls far surpass that of leopards, why would you even think posting that study was going to help your case? But we don't need a graph to tell us that when we know that the skulls of jaguars from the medium to large populations grow much larger on average and maximum dimensions because we have data from multiple studies already attesting to this. 

There is no complete, total, or whole overlap in size when one species dwarfs another one at the extremes. 

The graph clearly shows they overlap. Even the lion overlaps with the jaguar but it's clear that it's mostly lions and tigers & leopards and jaguars who overlap. 

It doesn't matter if they're dwarfed at extremes since an overlap can occur at minimums or averages as well. You're trying everything to dismiss their overlap. From the smallest populations to the maximums of the largest populations. Whatever suits you.

Quote:Prove now that leopard skulls attain the size ranges of jaguars from the Pantanal, Llanos, or Chaco. The word "overlap" is being repeatedly used by this person as if that claim wasn't objectively wrong.

Why do you want me to specifically pick a population, especially ones that suit you? Don't you hate cherry-picking? What's wrong with populations that do completely overlap? Post skull data of Llanos and Chacoan jaguars and we'll see if they overlap. I cannot prove this when data is lacking. 

Quote:You have no way to prove that an adult male Pantanal jaguar would have a similar skull even if it was below average, a skull of those dimensions would likely belong to a sub-adult at best unless you can provide evidence to the contrary by showcasing specific skulls with their live ages dated. Good luck.

And you have no prove that it would belong to a sub-adult. We're going in circles.

Quote:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I've seen this comparison long before you were around here. This photograph is unfortunately being abused because everyone who posts this, decides to not mention the measurements. The leopard skull is circa 245 mm whereas the jaguar skull is circa 280 mm or in other words; they're everything but similar in size.

Quote:And you decided to divide jaguars by country of origin rather than population as if Pantanal and Caatinga jaguars weren't two completely different populations separated by vast amounts of land in completely different eco-regions with putative scientific recognition as different sub-species (false dilemma), your Pantanal/Caatinga analogy would be equivalent to me comparing a Persian with an Arabian leopard. 

I've shown size variation in Indian leopards as one sample does not decide the size of a whole subspecies. This is the same case when comparing Pantanal jaguars to Caatinga jaguars who both live in the same country.

Persian and Arabian leopards are different subspecies unlike jaguars, who only have one subspecies. It's not exactly the equivalent. An equivalent would be Cape leopards and leopards from the provinces of Limpopo, Mpumalanga or KwaZulu-Natal in South Africa. 

Now show me the differences between those skulls I 'cherry-picked'. After all they're completely different right? Well prove it. Reply