Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[BA0701]

(03-24-2023, 03:29 AM)peter Wrote: VIDA

I read your response to post 628. This was the post in which I explained why 'Charger' and 'Landand Sea' were banned and why you were banned as well. As you no longer have the opportunity to respond, I will discuss the points you made. In order to enable those interested to follow the proceedings, I'll do it in some detail. 

Before I do, I want to make it clear I consider you a good poster. Always did. This is why I 'liked' your post about jaguar coalitions and this is why I liked quite a few other contributions. In the department of good information, you most certainly contributed. More than enough to qualify for membership of Wildfact? Yes. No question. 

Participating on a forum, however, isn't about being able to contribute in the information department only. Same for being able to write. In every organisation, quality, although much appreciated by all, isn't decisive. It is about being able to interact in a way appreciated by all. I'm referring to respect in particular. Respect for the rules, respect for good information, respect for other members and, last but not least, respect for those who started the forum and those applying the rules. Members who know are seldom seen in disputes. They offer their view on a topic, try to participate in a debate and know how to disagree in a respectful way. If a problem develops they can't solve, they contact those hired to do so or leave. Meaning they follow and respect the rules. Also meaning they, to use your words, know how approach a problem in the proper way.  

Experience says quite a few of those able to find good information struggle in this department. Those able in the department of quality in particular seem to lack essential skills in the department of interaction. Although it seems to be related to arrogance at times, most problems we see are a result of the unability to deal with something I would describe as opposition. Those involved seem to be unwilling to contact others to solve a problem. The most common result of this inability is friction, if not animosity. Not what we want, because it often results in a bad climate.  

Returning to the remark regarding your ability in the department of information. You are a good poster, but there are more. Our former member 'WaveRiders' was a class act and he wasn't the only one. It is remarkable only very few of those able to deliver in the department of information are still around. A result of the way mods tend to address problems over here? No doubt, but we're happy with the mods we have. They're often present, they developed an 'eye' for members out for trouble, they often talk with each other and they usually quickly solve problems. 

But 'usually' isn't always. The main reason is this forum has developed into a large organisation. Mods are not aware of all problems and some members decide against contacting those hired to apply the rules. Example. 

In your post, you referred to 'Balam'. I agree she was a major force in the jaguar department. Same, by the way, for 'Dark Jaguar'. When you visit the jaguar threads, you will notice I often complimented and encouraged both. And then, one day, they left. In your post, you blame the mods of Wildfact. And yours truly, of course. I understand, but 'Balam' never contacted me to inform me about 'Luipaard'. She did to inform me about trouble with other members and these problems, as far as I know, were solved. How were we to know 'Luipaard' was discrediting and stalking her? One day, she had enough and left. A great pity, but class acts very often attract stalkers and discrediters. Jealousy is one of the most powerful drives in humans. The one involved, by the way, was one of the few good leopard posters we had. Yes, you read it correctly: I considered him a good poster. He knew and decided to use the credit to perfect his skills in the department of stalking. It was the result of a deliberate decision. He knew he had " ... this guy Peter ... " (quote from one of his posts) in his pocket. This is humans for you. 

What I told you, by the way, isn't typical for members of forums only. I saw it in every organisation in which I participated for some time. This experience includes universities, councils of (quite large) cities, central government, a professional football team, a top notch band and many more. Like I said, ego, arrogance, jealousy and all the rest of it are omnipresent. You just can't avoid it, meaning you have to learn how to deal with it in an effective way. Not easy at the best of times. 

Returning to your response to post 628, from the top down. 

You said there was no reason to ban both 'Land and Sea' and you. I disagree. I'll start with your companion. When I contacted 'Charger' about his last two contributions, he told me to move or else. Your pal added he and 'Charger' were doing a discussion about a study conducted in South Africa. It was a nice chat until it was interrupted by someone asking questions about something they considered to be private. Meaning they used our forum to discuss a private matter. Bad decision. You do private conversations at home. If you are a member of a public forum, you use a PM to have a chat. Using a public forum to do so means you don't care about rules. When you, on top of that, dismiss one of the owners and tell him to move elsewhere, you qualify for a permanent ban. Your pal disagreed. He was appalled and decided to inform the one interrupting their chat about the rules of conduct. When he was banned as well, he contacted the other owner. In that PM, he complained about the way this forum was moderated. Then you decided to step in. It wasn't the first time you decided to question the decision of a mod or one of the owners. The first time, it resulted in a ban. Your pal complained and you added you wouldn't do it again. The ban was lifted. A few months later, when another problem erupted, you couldn't resist the urge to question the decision again. 

This forum, Vida, is a project of those people interested in the natural world. Members don't pay a fee and those running the forum earn just about enough to pay the bills. Meaning it isn't about money. Our main aim is to create a place about those making their home in the natural world. Our second aim is to provide reliable information. Last but not least is we want our members to respect the rules, each other, good information and those applying the rules. The last thing we want is to warn or ban a member. When we become aware of a problem, we first offer a bit of advice. These days, good advice usually is thrown overboard right away. Meaning we often have no other option but a warning or a ban. Every time a member is banned, the world is too small. Every time, the mods or owners are to blame. And every time, one of the owners is more or less forced to explain the decision taken. Solving problems takes a lot of time, Vida. In the end, you're completely done with members questioning one decision after another. You just apply the rules and move on. 

In between the personal insults, you referred to a discussion you had with 'Apex' about the size of white sharks and orcas. He's the one who, to use your words, also claimed tigers eat big male brown bears for breakfast. The discussion about sharks and orcas resulted in a ban. A ban that was lifted later. You know my trade is tigers. I'm not a specialist in orcas and sharks, but I did talk to a few I consider to be in the know in this department. I'm referring to those who have personal experience and quite a bit of knowledge. Apart from that, I saw one close to Santorini a long time ago. Most of those who saw, or actually measured, white sharks told me adults range between 12-22 feet, possibly a bit more. Large females easily top 4,000 pounds. Big, but not even close to adult orcas. All of those in the know agree orcas are larger and bigger at the level of averages. No question.

In Australia, people who had personal experience told me large female white sharks well exceed the accepted records. Fishermen are not the only ones who got to that conclusion. In Eden, Australia, I talked to someone in the know in a local museum. The museum has the skeleton of an adult male orca known as 'Tom'. He was the leader of a pod that cooperated with local fisherman about a century ago. Their target was whales. The journalist who wrote a book about the fishermen and the orcas talked to many who had personal experience. Time and again, they told him white sharks can grow to a very large size. There's, in fact, quite a bit of, direct and indirect, information about exceptional individuals in temperate waters all over the globe. While I agree 'Apex' can get carried away, a discussion about the size of large sharks could be of interest. Like always, it depends on the individuals involved in the discussion. The attempt to get to an interesting discussion over here failed. I'm not blaming anyone, but it is typical for many forums. 

As to the discussions about big cats and big brown bears. The only region where they meet and interact is the Russian Far East. I've read everything available and noticed opinions changed over time. I'm not referring to members of forums, but to those who have experience. It is a fact 'Apex', whether you like it or not, contributed significantly in the department of tigers and bears when he was a member of 'Carnivora'. I invited him to join Wildfact, because I wanted him to offer the opportunity to take the credit he deserved. In your last post, you said he wasn't banned during the discussion about sharks and orcas because of his position over here, whereas you was. Meaning 'Apex' was protected by the one who banned you.  

Not so. While I agree 'Apex' can get carried away at times, he never posted outright misinformation. He was, at worst, 'testing' a few boundaries in the department of (accepted) information during the discussion, but, rulewise, never crossed a line. Not quite true for you. The decision to play the mods and, in an indirect way, both owners was decisive. Back then, you also had a habit of questioning those involved in applying rules. The ban, in other words, wasn't a result of the info you posted, but of the way you responded to problems. We're talking about interaction, that is. 

As to 'Apex' and his position over here. In my last post in the tiger extinction thread, I clearly said interacting at a forum is about respect. A member doesn't need to cross a line to create animosity. Meaning I'm aware of the source of the animosity that erupted during the discussion. Also meaning we don't do exceptions and privileges over here. 

In my post, I decided to conclude the discussion about tigers and bears for now. Not quite to the liking of 'Apex', but he, in contrast to you, didn't decide to question me and to go public. Private matters should be discussed in private. This doesn't mean the case I referred to is closed. It also doesn't mean the discussion about tigers and bears will be revived soon. It means we decided to try to solve a problem in the most appropiate way. Watch the words 'decided' and 'appropiate'. Also meaning we decided against going public. You, again, decided for a different approach and this decision, again, didn't produce. It, in fact, produced something you wanted to avoid. Responsible people accept the results of their decisions, Vida. They don't start complaining.        

Something else. In your post, you referred to 'cat-fans'. Carnivora, you said, has 'lion-degenerates', whereas Wildfact is a refuge for 'tiger-degenerates'. Talking about respect. I assume you noticed Wildfact has very few 'tiger-degenerates'? Anyone interested in lions moves to Wildfact. The reason is the lion department is large and interesting. The great majority of our members is interested in lions. The lion department generates more traffic than all others combined. In spite of the number of posts and threads, we only very seldom, if ever, have a problem in the department of interaction. The main reason is members interested in this great cat are very social and aware of the rules. Apart from that, the mods are very good. The result is a thriving department loaded with interesting information. That's what we aimed for and that's what we got.            

Is 'Carnivora' a refuge for 'lion-degenerates'? Not really. 'Tiger-degenerates' then? Negative as well. It is the place to be for those interested in versus-debates. Big cats, bears, reptiles, sharks, you mention it and it's there. It also has good info about species not discussed over here for lack of specialists. Another advantage is it has quite a few members out for my scalp. In this respect, the climate is great. Last but not least is you'll be able to rent the old, but otherwise very nice T-34 of 'Warsaw' and a few 16-inch guns left by 'WaveRiders', including loads of shells. They're a bit rusty, but effective.  

Another forum that compares in this respect (referring to my members out for my scalp) is 'Domain of the bears'. They do bears and tigers and you'll find plenty of info about miniature bears having big male tigers for breakfast every other day. It goes without saying all stories are reliable.   

As to the insults and all the rest of it. You feel badly treated and want to leave a present. I understand. My advice is to drop the frustration. Man up, soldier. Make sure you'll excel in another contest in the near future and try to learn a few things from the incidents that happened over here. Respect the rules of engagement, accept it's way better to learn how to disagree in a respectful way than to do battle and avoid trouble with officers no matter what. Learn to deal with opposition and make sure your opponent isn't luring you into a back alley loaded with shady characters always prepared to bet on the outcome of a fight. The key words are interaction and respect.  

When you think you solved the problem, you can give it another try. When you do, focus on good info and good debates only. And when it doesn't quite work out as expected, take a break. Stay away from the alleys. 

Over here, a permanent ban is 6 months. Good behaviour will result in a deduction of, say, two. Good luck and say hello to your pal.

Very good and informative post @peter , I hope everyone finds their way here and reads it. Reply