Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[Pckts]

(11-29-2022, 03:00 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-28-2022, 11:39 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-01-2022, 07:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-31-2022, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Why is a vet needed? Rob was there and saw them being weighed multiple times with his own eyes. Or are you saying he's lying? If so why would he lie but not the vet?

By above 215kg I'm talking about empty males since Mapogos weighed 230kg with stomach content and all other mentioned were bigger or even much bigger than them.

There's a huge variation of size in the SS lions, you can see a 3yo male fighting a much smaller adult male in the video for reference. Since more than 30 years ago there's no fence between SS, the KNP and the other reserves of the Greater KNP, lions come and go from the KNP and Manyeleti, or even all down the Timbavati, crossing the Manyeleti and entering SS from the north.

Today we have the coalition of 4, the Ndzengas who are average or below average, even said ( I don't remember now if by ranger, guide or photographer ) to be the smallest lions they've seen and were impressed by how small they are. They came from Kruger. But at the same time we have the 2 PCM fathered by KNP males in a pride at the border, they're much bigger than the Timbavati male the Ndzengas ousted who was already much larger than the Ndzengas themselves.

I haven’t seen what Rob said so I’m not saying anything on that regard. What am I saying is that a guide who “allegedly” witnessed the capture is very different from the person who actually took the alleged weights. 
Lastly there isn’t a “huge variation” it’s just normal size ranges. There’s no location with any real data base that doesn’t show the same variation. But when talking about prime males generally it’s going to be the range of 180kg to 225kg like Rob has said as well. 
This idea that the Majingalanes dwarfed the Mapogos is  nonsense. You see Kinky tail and T compared to them and theres absolutely no way to determine any size difference.

This is what Rob says:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And comparison of Mapogos with other males ( keep in mind he never saw Matimbas or Birminghams and is just going by "damn they are big" from what he heard other lodges say, but he saw all others for years as they were dominant males in the West where he worked ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As Rob said it's quite clear that all Majingilanes > Selati #1 > Mapogos who with stomach content weighed 230kg.

Majingilane's dwarfing Mapogos aside ( this is a strong word that probably doesn't apply here ), Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

And to make it clear, these are all coalitions the rangers saw clashing with each other multiple times, it's not even like they saw one coalition once and the other male a month after that and got the impression the second one was bigger, they saw them for years and saw them chasing and fighting each other.

Bboys were also very likely bigger than Majins, Nhenha is simply, clearly, much bulkier and overall more impressive even at the age of 12, than the Majins ever were, but his son who's in a coalition with him and is bigger than him, as a prime male, was dwarfed by the two 5yo PCM chasing him. Of which one of the PCM is much bigger than the other. Hell, among the Matimbas themselves, Ndhuna dwarfed Slitnose.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So yeah the difference between the Mapogos ( weighed 230kg with stomach content ) and the likes of Matimbas and Charleston Boys is insane, again, the bigger Charleston male dwarfed a prime Sand River Male in a fight while he was only 3yo! Even smaller lions like the PCM would dwarf the Mapogos since they dwarfed the Nkuhuma male who's already quite bigger than Mapogos.

Idk if it's the norm of it it's because SS borders the insanely huge KNP, Manyeleti and gets lions from Timbavati too ( that borders Manyeleti ) all the time, but the variation in size there is big.

So again we have the issue.
Rob wasn't the one weighing them nor is he presenting actual weights just estimates. We'd want the one involved with the actual weighing and process used. 
230kg gorged is a good sized free ranging S. African male, it's right in line with what we've seen from Smuts and Hamilton. I'm not denying it's possible, just need real verification from the ones involved to consider it valid. 

In regards to size comparisons, like we already know, there's no real difference between Kinky Tail and T and the Majingilanes. Neither of the Mapogos mentioned were the largest of the Coalition so we know they are all going to be around the same. 

Quote:I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

Multiple things to look at in these skulls
KT's skull has a more robust rostrum and frontal area.
His Zygomatic Arch is also more robust and obviously width is impossible to determine since he's missing his other side. 
Last is the fact that his skull is sitting behind the Majingilanes skull with will force perception to be larger in the Majingilane. But overall the more dense and heavier skull is going to belong to KT based on what's shown and generally that's going to belong to a larger male Lion, not 100% of the time but more often than not. But regardless it's splitting hairs, both are close in size and it's what was shown in the video as well. 

Quote:Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

Again I'd need to see who "everybody" is and in what context their claims are mentioned.

Rob is not presenting estimates, he's literally saying the rounded weight he saw with his own eyes. Idk why you will believe the vet and not a ranger who was also there, the word of both have the same weight as both are credible eyewitnesses, if you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other either and should demand a video of the weighting as the only possible proof of a the weight of an animal.

But I have no reason to doubt him. Also they weren't gorged, it's unknown the amount of stomach content they had but certainly not full or gorged, much less than that, when the male is full/gorged Rob points it out clearly and doubles down on it, he even says the weight doesn't count because of it, like he did with the 300kg+ lion from the 90s already mentioned here:

*This image is copyright of its original author

He was asked in different occasisons and gave the same answer "not more than 230kg with stomach content", never said they were full or gorged.

KT's skull was clearly smaller, even the woman who took the pictures and had them, hold them, said the Majingilane was "much" bigger which surprised her since the Majingilane was younger, the fact it's missing some parts aside. And that lion wasn't a prime individual. It's very clear Majingilanes were bigger, they were more impressive individuals. You're the first person I see claiming KT's skull was bigger.

Djuma Rangers watching a Matimba: "Matimbas are substantially larger than the the Bboys, they're a lot bigger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ukMnl6Nlw

Another Ranger watching DM Avoca and comparing him with Bboys and Matimbas "Bboys are not really big, they aren't tiny, but when you compare them to the size of the massive Matimba Hairy Belly, he was a monster": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTwLIfi6yM

Another Ranger when asked about the biggest lion he saw "biggest cat I've seen here were the two Matimbas, Ginger and HB, they were absolute monsters, particulary their paws which were just huge, they had incredible tracks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfRvTJDQ9U

Mala Mala Ranger after they got footage of  Matimbas chasing the Matshapiris "the Clarendon [Matimba] are definitely bigger [than the Matshapiri]": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cs1gKNIShs

Londolozi Lodge after seeing HB for the first time:  We presumed that in the darkness the impala had heard the wildebeest moving and had got a fright. How wrong we were, as from out behind a gwarrie bush walked one of the biggest male lions I have ever seen! Identifying individual lions or leopards in the beam of a spotlight can be slightly more difficult than in the day, as the light can play tricks on your eyes, but one thing was clear; neither Dave nor I had ever seen a lion with a mane so impressive. This was no Majingilane, nor was it a Styx, Fourways or Matshipiri male. Having heard of the Matimba male with the enormous mane, this was the only lion we thought it could be.

https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/05/li...londolozi/

Another comment: The male with the enormous mane, who some say is – unofficially – the biggest lion in the Sabi Sands, contemplates another bout of feeding on his buffalo carcass.

And another one comparing to Majingilanes:

The next morning (yesterday), reports were that two of the Majingilane and the two Matimba males were found lying up around 500 m from each other. Despite their enormous size, it was reported that the two Matimbas were reluctant to answer the challenging calls of the Majingilane pair. Perhaps they heard the rest of the Majingilane coalition further west and realised the great danger they would face in taking on four male lions.


https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/15/ma...londolozi/

Londolozi guest who was in the safari mentioned in the Londolozi article above:

*This image is copyright of its original author

I've also posted videos and pictures of lions dwarfing each other and you haven't addressed, if you think these Matimbas don't dwarf Mapogos then I don't know what to tell you as if the words of the people who saw them aren't enough, images speak thousands words: https://imgur.com/a/P5BSuDC

Quote:Rob is not presenting estimates, he's literally saying the rounded weight he saw with his own eyes. Idk why you will believe the vet and not a ranger who was also there, the word of both have the same weight as both are credible eyewitnesses, if you don't believe one, you shouldn't believe the other either and should demand a video of the weighting as the only possible proof of a the weight of an animal.

But I have no reason to doubt him. Also they weren't gorged, it's unknown the amount of stomach content they had but certainly not full or gorged, much less than that, when the male is full/gorged Rob points it out clearly and doubles down on it, he even says the weight doesn't count because of it, like he did with the 300kg+ lion from the 90s already mentioned here:

That's an estimate. He doesn't present an actual weight nor which specific lion weighed what. All he states is that he "was there." There is far more left to be clarified and verified. 

A Vet is the one who actually participates in the the weighing of the cat, whether it's drugging the cat to it's estimated weight or a field expert like a biologist/zoologist who would perform the measuring and weighing of the cat. Rob states he participated in none of the above. His involvement could be little more than providing a gun while research took place, which from the sounds of it, that's likely. We've had numerous accounts of "weights" from people involved with a capture that turned out to be nothing more than estimates. This again is why further clarification needs to be received. 

In regards to gorged, he literally states they were on a bait and weighed more after eating. Hence being gorged, you're splitting hairs on the terminology. Fact is, that's not empty. 

For the 90s male:
Again you have "I forget" 
"Full stomach"
"Being Close"
"50kg of meat inside it"
Etc.
These again aren't verifiable 

Quote:KT's skull was clearly smaller, even the woman who took the pictures and had them, hold them, said the Majingilane was "much" bigger which surprised her since the Majingilane was younger, the fact it's missing some parts aside. And that lion wasn't a prime individual. It's very clear Majingilanes were bigger, they were more impressive individuals. You're the first person I see claiming KT's skull was bigger.

Source?

Quote:Djuma Rangers watching a Matimba: "Matimbas are substantially larger than the the Bboys, they're a lot bigger": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ukMnl6Nlw

Another Ranger watching DM Avoca and comparing him with Bboys and Matimbas "Bboys are not really big, they aren't tiny, but when you compare them to the size of the massive Matimba Hairy Belly, he was a monster": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTTwLIfi6yM

Another Ranger when asked about the biggest lion he saw "biggest cat I've seen here were the two Matimbas, Ginger and HB, they were absolute monsters, particulary their paws which were just huge, they had incredible tracks": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfRvTJDQ9U

Mala Mala Ranger after they got footage of Matimbas chasing the Matshapiris "the Clarendon [Matimba] are definitely bigger [than the Matshapiri]": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cs1gKNIShs

Londolozi Lodge after seeing HB for the first time:  We presumed that in the darkness the impala had heard the wildebeest moving and had got a fright. How wrong we were, as from out behind a gwarrie bush walked one of the biggest male lions I have ever seen! Identifying individual lions or leopards in the beam of a spotlight can be slightly more difficult than in the day, as the light can play tricks on your eyes, but one thing was clear; neither Dave nor I had ever seen a lion with a mane so impressive. This was no Majingilane, nor was it a Styx, Fourways or Matshipiri male. Having heard of the Matimba male with the enormous mane, this was the only lion we thought it could be.

https://blog.londolozi.com/2015/09/05/li...londolozi/

Another comment: The male with the enormous mane, who some say is – unofficially – the biggest lion in the Sabi Sands, contemplates another bout of feeding on his buffalo carcass.

And another one comparing to Majingilanes:

The next morning (yesterday), reports were that two of the Majingilane and the two Matimba males were found lying up around 500 m from each other. Despite their enormous size, it was reported that the two Matimbas were reluctant to answer the challenging calls of the Majingilane pair. Perhaps they heard the rest of the Majingilane coalition further west and realised the great danger they would face in taking on four male lions.

You're fanaticizing a bit here

A large mane isn't a large body and what exactly does the Matimbas compared to the Bboys have to do with the Magingilanes compared to the Mapogos?

And what about the comment stating that the guide who mentions their size and specifically their paws states they are smaller than the Mara Lions? 
Can you post the full video?

Most importantly, the Matimbas have been ran out by both the Majingilanes and Mapogos even when numbers were equal. Even if they are larger, it's certainly not some absurd size discrepancy, in every coalition you have some that are larger and other that are smaller but all are in a normal range of one another. 

Quote:Londolozi guest who was in the safari mentioned in the Londolozi article above:

 A guest is little to go off of. What's her experience, which lions has she seen and from what distance.

Quote:I've also posted videos and pictures of lions dwarfing each other and you haven't addressed, if you think these Matimbas don't dwarf Mapogos then I don't know what to tell you as if the words of the people who saw them aren't enough, images speak thousands words: https://imgur.com/a/P5BSuDC

 
What images and pictures?


I've seen none of them together and I've yet to read anything that states them to dwarf the Mapogos. I'll I've seen is that they are big lions that have been run off by the Mapogos and Majingilanes. Reply