Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[Pckts]

(11-25-2022, 08:29 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(11-01-2022, 07:00 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(10-31-2022, 11:59 PM)Mapokser Wrote: Why is a vet needed? Rob was there and saw them being weighed multiple times with his own eyes. Or are you saying he's lying? If so why would he lie but not the vet?

By above 215kg I'm talking about empty males since Mapogos weighed 230kg with stomach content and all other mentioned were bigger or even much bigger than them.

There's a huge variation of size in the SS lions, you can see a 3yo male fighting a much smaller adult male in the video for reference. Since more than 30 years ago there's no fence between SS, the KNP and the other reserves of the Greater KNP, lions come and go from the KNP and Manyeleti, or even all down the Timbavati, crossing the Manyeleti and entering SS from the north.

Today we have the coalition of 4, the Ndzengas who are average or below average, even said ( I don't remember now if by ranger, guide or photographer ) to be the smallest lions they've seen and were impressed by how small they are. They came from Kruger. But at the same time we have the 2 PCM fathered by KNP males in a pride at the border, they're much bigger than the Timbavati male the Ndzengas ousted who was already much larger than the Ndzengas themselves.

I haven’t seen what Rob said so I’m not saying anything on that regard. What am I saying is that a guide who “allegedly” witnessed the capture is very different from the person who actually took the alleged weights. 
Lastly there isn’t a “huge variation” it’s just normal size ranges. There’s no location with any real data base that doesn’t show the same variation. But when talking about prime males generally it’s going to be the range of 180kg to 225kg like Rob has said as well. 
This idea that the Majingalanes dwarfed the Mapogos is  nonsense. You see Kinky tail and T compared to them and theres absolutely no way to determine any size difference.

This is what Rob says:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And comparison of Mapogos with other males ( keep in mind he never saw Matimbas or Birminghams and is just going by "damn they are big" from what he heard other lodges say, but he saw all others for years as they were dominant males in the West where he worked ):

*This image is copyright of its original author

I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

*This image is copyright of its original author

As Rob said it's quite clear that all Majingilanes > Selati #1 > Mapogos who with stomach content weighed 230kg.

Majingilane's dwarfing Mapogos aside ( this is a strong word that probably doesn't apply here ), Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

And to make it clear, these are all coalitions the rangers saw clashing with each other multiple times, it's not even like they saw one coalition once and the other male a month after that and got the impression the second one was bigger, they saw them for years and saw them chasing and fighting each other.

Bboys were also very likely bigger than Majins, Nhenha is simply, clearly, much bulkier and overall more impressive even at the age of 12, than the Majins ever were, but his son who's in a coalition with him and is bigger than him, as a prime male, was dwarfed by the two 5yo PCM chasing him. Of which one of the PCM is much bigger than the other. Hell, among the Matimbas themselves, Ndhuna dwarfed Slitnose.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So yeah the difference between the Mapogos ( weighed 230kg with stomach content ) and the likes of Matimbas and Charleston Boys is insane, again, the bigger Charleston male dwarfed a prime Sand River Male in a fight while he was only 3yo! Even smaller lions like the PCM would dwarf the Mapogos since they dwarfed the Nkuhuma male who's already quite bigger than Mapogos.

Idk if it's the norm of it it's because SS borders the insanely huge KNP, Manyeleti and gets lions from Timbavati too ( that borders Manyeleti ) all the time, but the variation in size there is big.

So again we have the issue.
Rob wasn't the one weighing them nor is he presenting actual weights just estimates. We'd want the one involved with the actual weighing and process used. 
230kg gorged is a good sized free ranging S. African male, it's right in line with what we've seen from Smuts and Hamilton. I'm not denying it's possible, just need real verification from the ones involved to consider it valid. 

In regards to size comparisons, like we already know, there's no real difference between Kinky Tail and T and the Majingilanes. Neither of the Mapogos mentioned were the largest of the Coalition so we know they are all going to be around the same. 

Quote:I never said Majingilanes dwarfed Mr.T and KT, though there is a way to know who's bigger, we have pictures of 5yo 5th Majingilane's skull with prime KT's skull, the Majingilane was clearly bigger although he had smaller canines:

Multiple things to look at in these skulls
KT's skull has a more robust rostrum and frontal area.
His Zygomatic Arch is also more robust and obviously width is impossible to determine since he's missing his other side. 
Last is the fact that his skull is sitting behind the Majingilanes skull with will force perception to be larger in the Majingilane. But overall the more dense and heavier skull is going to belong to KT based on what's shown and generally that's going to belong to a larger male Lion, not 100% of the time but more often than not. But regardless it's splitting hairs, both are close in size and it's what was shown in the video as well. 

Quote:Matimbas definitely, 100%, did, as they dwarfed the Majingilane themselves. Everybody in the Sabi Sands, even Londolozi Lodge who were Majingilane lovers, and their guests, stated Matimbas were much bigger than Majins, that they had monstruos size, that they were also much bigger than the Birmingham Boys and some of the largest lions they've ever saw, and they were talking about the 2 Southern Matimbas, they never even saw the older male who was much bigger than the others. Mala Mala also said that Matimbas were bigger than the Matshapiri males who were themselves very likely bigger than the Majins as everybody saw them as very impressive, while nobody ever thought the same of the Majins.

Again I'd need to see who "everybody" is and in what context their claims are mentioned. Reply