Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[Pckts]

(10-31-2022, 11:13 AM)Mapokser Wrote:

(08-25-2022, 07:21 PM)Pantherinae Wrote:

(08-25-2022, 05:31 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(08-25-2022, 03:17 AM)Pantherinae Wrote:

(08-24-2022, 07:15 PM)Pckts Wrote: Just to add to my last comment…
What exactly changed from the time Smutts and Hamilton were capturing their lions to now?

Why is it these Private reserves make claims of the largest “Wild” Lion weights ever yet there are now less Lions, prey and land for these Lions to roam freely compared to Smuts and Hamiltons days?

Why has there never been a Lion from free ranging E. Africa to obtain these weights, let alone multiples? E. Africa has far more prey, far more large prey, the highest lion population on earth and better protection.

Well there has been a 250 kg lion in Timbawati and the Black Dam male was described as being bigger than the 250 kg lion, by a person who darted both animals. and now we also know of a group if 5 males between 230-240 kg in Kruger who hadn’t been feeding in the last two days, are all of similar size or bigger than the largest lion Smutts and Hamilton weighed there. And this happend decades ago so not that much has changed. 

One of the reasons why lions from private reserves grow bigger is because many of the lions brought in has Namibian or Kalahari genes or directly brorught in from those places. 

Regarding the 300 kg cat it was described as being a wild lion, this from people working in the reserve or having spent a considerable amount of time there. Having spoken to Rob personally he is careful in giving weights and not to exaggerate the size of the lions. When you get more than one source telling about this lion we cannot ignore it. Dismissing it’s accuracy because he couldn’t remember the details correctly because it happend a considerable amount of time ago is just silly, obviously he remembers that he witnessed a lion of around 300 kg and yet still be a bit fussy about the exact weight and every detail. It just strengthens his credability imo, 

Also there is a 272 kg male lion from East Africa on an empty stomach. Shot for attacking humans out of hunger not because he killed cattle. Him after a big meal would be over 300 kg. 

The lions from most of these private reserves provide for themselves. there are probably exceptions, but Lions in places like Madikwe, Addo Elephant park, Tswalu, Phinda etc for sure do. And based on the statements made around the lion in question his reserve is the same.

Neither of the “sources” were there and have relayed that clearly. 

We’ve already gone over these numerous times. None of them are reliable other than the 272 kg male who was a notorious cattle killer. Regardless of stomach content or not, he’d been growing fat on cattle for months.

Lastly Namibian lions are no larger than anywhere else so their genetic influence wouldn’t change lion size nor is there any reason they’d be inserted in any of these reserves. A few here or there mean nothing when comparing all Lions living in S. Africa.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So even if it killed cattle it did not appare like a overweight cattle killer, neither was it like a captive lion or fat just big… 
I know he gave it a (6) Moderate/High, but that I suspect has just as much to do with the overall apparence of the lion in the picture more so than it has to do with the fat on the lion. As the moderate Lions looks like smaller individuals in the picture. 
As after all he states the lion was not fat. 

As for the other Lions it’s important to state they are not reliable in YOUR opinion. Regardless there are lions stated at those weight’s(greater than 225 kg) around Kruger from past and present.
The Mapogos where weighed, all under 230 kg on an empty stomach, but I guess the largest two where pretty close to 230 kg since that’s the number he used. Say the biggest of them weighed 227 kg and had 10-15 kg stomach content which would make him 212-217 kg empty. That seems fair right? Yet compared to other dominant males they where described as small/average males by Rob. Smaller than the Majingilane’s. Which again was said to be much smaller than the Matimba males. 
Not everything has to be written down in detail on a paper, sometimes you just have to be a little logical. 
Looking at the source, are the person giving the info reliable? Or does the person have a habit of exaggerating? does this person have a bias? Etc.. 
we cannot disregard everything because it doesn’t suit a certain narrative one might have set.

To be more specific Rob said no Mapogo weighed over 230, not that they weighed below 230. In two different occasions he said "none weighed over 230kg". And that Dreadlocks weighed more than Makhulu when both were in their primes, but "not by any real margin" and said that all 6 were very similar in size, pointing out of his video where 3 of them were bonding side by side, including the smallest Mr.T with the biggest Dreadlocks: indeed, in height and length there was no visible difference, Dreadlocks was just builkier.

And yeah he says Selati #1 was bigger than all Mapogos, all Majingilane were bigger than Selati #1, and Bboys and Matimbas as big or bigger than the Majingilane ( but he never saw Matimbas and Bboys so he's going by comments he heard about their sides from other lodges ). The Bboys do easiily look bigger than Majingilane in frame I'd say and they're half brothers to the Matimbas and sons of Ximpoko's partner if I recall. Matimbas there's not even need to say, they're much bigger than Bboys and Majingilane as Londolozi says. There's also Nkuhuma Jr the Matimba son who was as tall as their fathers at the age of 3, as well as the Othawa Jr a Majingilane son who was also as tall as the Matimbas at the age of 3, plus the Othawa Male son of the Majingilane who was clearly bigger than their fathers. There was also the 2 Charleston males said to be much bigger than the Bboys as well and a ranger even said they were as big as the Black Dam Male.

This /\ is the fully grown Sand River Male with the bent spine ( left ) fighting the 3 years and 3 months old Big Boy Charleston, he was much larger than the Sand River Male despite his age and is stated by Mala Mala that the Charleston were incredibly large for their ages, iirc even at 2 years of age Mala Mala was mistaken their tracks for those of adult lions.

Still in Sabi Sands we now have the 2 Plain Camp Males who seems to be much bigger than Nhenha ( the remaining Bboy, biggest of the 5 ), since we have this video of them chasing Nhenha's 6yo Nkuhuma son/nephew who's now in a coalition with him and is bigger than his father:

And the PCM are just 5.

So between all these males, 6 Mapogos, 1 Selati, 5 Majingilanes, 5 Bboys, 6 Matimbas, 2 Charlestons, 2 PCM... We have in SS alone a huge sample of males above 215kg by scaling them off the Mapogos. Damn, I almost forgot the Avocas who are also bigger than the Mapogos and were compared to the Matimbas.

Sure, Mapogos aside, none were weighed and we can only estimate, but it shows very clearly that a 225kg lion isn't like the peak of their weight and something very rare, far from it.

Unfortunately Robs not a Vet so you’d want real confirmation first. Next is that you’re not going to see tiers of Lion size from the same locations. You’ll have some variation amongst Coalitions but in general any territory holding coalition are going to have similar sized cats. “Some bigger than others” but nothing to crazy.

In regards to the 225kg weight, that’s for a free ranging and empty lion, that’s the same as a lion who is 250kg with stomach content so still a huge cat. Reply