Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[Pckts]

@Pantherinae 

Quote:Yes I mentioned myself, that he had given him a 6. yet he also described the lion as being nothing like a captive animal, just a very big lion. Wild east African Lions especially just past their prime can have extra fat. I have seen that on several males 

Gorged isn't fat, as per your picture. And not being "captive overweight" means little. The cat was obviously overweight as stated by his standard limb size but extreme weight as well as his bad habit of livestock raiding. 

Quote:On private reserves: no one said they are pure wild lions, I said the lions there live a natural life, they are not spoon fed, they hunt and kill for themselves, and will fight over territory and compeate with other carnivores. Ofc when humans change and move animals to keep the gene pool clean it’s not "perfect wild Lions" or a natural balance lol no one has said that. but the animals who get’s taken into these "reserves" are wild animals, and they continue to provide for themselves while being at these reserves. So their weights wouldn’t change. 

Tiger canyon is not the same, he interracts with his tigers, I have seen a drugged blessbuck charge a tiger, one tiger biting in the throat of an already tiger stiff as a board, so that carcass was likely placed out into another tigers territory for mr Varty to get a cool shot to sell, the animals are hybrid tigers from ZOO’s

What's a "natural life?"
Having humans artificially provide water and bait as well as restocking food and lack of competition or offering "pay to research" programs or trophy hunts is far from "natural."
A natural life means Water holes come and go, prey animals migrate, competition occurs, animals get injured and die and so on. No one ever said they were "spoon fed" but they certainly aren't true free ranging wild lions. On top of everything else, most of these private reserves rely on trophy hunts, providing customers "guaranteed" catches is most important. 

In regards to Tiger canyons, they also have naturally hunted Warthog, Blesbock, Wildebeest and Ostrich, does that mean no w all of a sudden it should be considered Wild? 

@AndresVida 

Quote:The person Willie Coetzee is a scientist and professional in his field and is basically using the nature conservation official (scientist) he knows personally as the source. A source from scientists that backed it up each other. Personal communication are common sources in scientific documents. These are not hunting records that being said, which should make a difference ig. 

Again, this isn't a first hand account, this is hearsay. "I know someone who was there" means little.
On top of that, again this is a private reserve not the true wild. 
They have ulterior motives and offer a very different experience in comparison. 

Quote:What basically ends everything is that Rob The Ranger was himself there 25 years ago and remembers that he was weighed, darted on a bait. The person John Dixon also confirmed that he was indeed there. We have the numbers but at least his memories are everything but contradictory to the data given by scientists beside the crucial confirmation of the capture and weighing.

And again, he specifically mentions it being so long ago he doesn't remember much, just that it was close to 300kg but full with 50kg of meat. He also specifically casts doubt on the 309kg claim. So you're grasping at straws when claiming that weight as verified when someone who was actually there specifically mentions his doubts. So you have a baited cat, living in a semi wild private reserve with no one available who actually participated in the capture and alleged weighing. 

Quote:Yes we have some measurements of free-ranging lions suggesting lions are capable of reaching these figures with 272 kg with an empty belly (I estimate to be it like 292-302 kg full) being the prime example.   

What measurements would those be? 
2nd hand sources of extreme weight claims from private reserves aren't measurements of free ranging and the only "free ranging lion" that has a 272kg claim was a notorious livestock killer, overweight and apparently didn't possess large limbs bones. 

Quote:Lions of that huge size are not common. Some weights are obtained by asking countless reserves, people and that with many people. Such weights do not fall from the sky. 

There have been quite a few weights from reserves that were proven. But we also obtained large lions from the kruger nationalpark recently with 5 adult males ranging ranging from 230-240 kg (heaviest 240 kg) and not eating since 2 days. Including two males of 225 kg.

No reserves possess near the amount of lions that Kruger did or does, it's not close. Smutts and Hamilton had access to lion country in it's prime with the highest prey availability we've seen. Literally there were so many lions that they culled them. 

In regards to your recent kruger lion claims, again I'd need to see who's saying it since no name is provided and again it's noted to be over 30 years ago. But a Lion weighing 240kg doesn't mean it's larger than Smutts 225kg largest Lion. Remember, his lion was confirmed empty so that's easily in his range. But again I'd need real details to make any conclusions. Like a real name and capture method, measurements etc. Considering any study quoted for Lion capture within the past 20 years have all credited smutts capture technique, you can be sure baits were also used. And if this person was working in kruger over 30 years ago, almost no doubt they would have been working with Smutts or at worst certainly following his guidelines. 

Quote:There are people who have much more deep knowledge to determine how well a population is doing.

One of the factors why lions from east africa are commonly 150-160 kg or basically in a bad condition is because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season. But there are countless other factors.

There is no one alive today with more Knowledge on the Subject than Smutts or Hamilton with regards to Free Ranging Lions in S. Africa.

East Africa has by far the largest lion population and ungulate population any where on earth. It also has the best protections afforded anywhere in africa. This " because of the high competition, mortality and prey poor season"  is called the Wild. That's the major difference between free ranging wild territory and "semi wild" private reserves.

Quote:The paper "Age assignment of African lions" from Funston may be a bit helpful to get an idea.

I've been to the Serengeti, I'm well aware of the dynamic in E. Africa.

Quote:the lion ximpoko from Timbavati is fully confirmed by the scientists working there. 

No, he's fully confirmed by Almero who wasn't actually apart of the capture. Again we're talking about private hunting reserve notoriously famous for selectively breeding and selling White Lions. 
Per @dr panthera 
"Like in other privately owned reserves the lions of Timbavati can not be considered 100% wild or free-ranging...they can be considered semi-captive in the sense that human intervention is more intense than in a national park setting, the owners will 'select' more impressive specimens and breed them, protect them, medicate them and even feed them. The tourist/hunters/photographers want to see big lions, scientists want to see, study, and protect ALL lions.
I was intrigued with the hunting records from Timbavati as the trophies there are significantly larger than the lions of Limpopo-Kruger, but it is easy to explain once you factor human intervention."
He was a Lion researcher who studied lion prey preference and used to post here a while back. 
This was posted in the Timbavati lion thread

Quote:The Mount Kenya lion was killed for an attack on humans and there was no record or information of him killing cattles as stated by Richard Kock. Also I would like to know how a lion in east africa can prey on cattles for months (that's just a thing of impossibility).

Again, this is noted by numerous people and literally written on the actual skull of the Lion itself. 
Just to help you understand E. Africa a bit.
In Tanzania for instance you have 4 main Tribes, the Masai *most famous* that you see walk their Cattle and Goats throughout the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Parks freely. It's their lively hood, this was agreed upon by the E. African Gov't to allow them to keep their land undisturbed. It's the last "natural stronghold* for them and is a trip when you are driving around and see a 5 year old boy walking a giant herd of Goat through the heart of Lion country. Cattle is regularly preyed upon there and if a Lion becomes savy, it will cause immense damage to their livestock.  Reply