Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

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~~SpinoRex~~ Offline

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#325

02-23-2022, 03:18 AM

(02-22-2022, 10:27 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(02-22-2022, 02:37 AM)SpinoRex Wrote: Though i took it then falsely as a offensive reply... m

I think it will be a useless discussion without clear-cut datas (i dont think they will ever exist if i am being honest). About the african lions i do not know that they are called as the same subspecies now (previously southern ones were seperated). And they have also different skull sizes but as i said i dont think that makes a difference. I understand your skull point. But thats not enough and what i am talking about is the bone robusticity and even then with a noticable difference (the human example) the difference at least at similar conditions shouldnt be 50 kg.

I found the studies finally...

Yes lions hunt more often. I mean how 50 preys are enough for a pride? But as i said i found more datas but those are from small reserves and not from Kruger. But still from SA.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ll_reserve

This study estimated the food intake for adult males via calculation at 4.1-4.6 kg for lionesses, 6.5 kg for male lion and for subadults overall 3.2 kg and has generally valuable infos.
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/EJC117162

The nepal tigresses weighed 140 kg. But they werent adjusted from what i know looking at the tables (the males werent adjusted). I dont have the paper but remember it like that.

So i dont know how tiger would do in africa but physically i dont think it would be a big problem. They are fast and strong big cats like lions but of course the conditions are different and therefore confrontet with a different lifestyle. But that comparison wasnt the main point and isnt good enough.

I personally dont think any population is challenging the crater lions in terms of size. Those of delta lion might be not far away but the bulkiness of those lions are unrivaled. Even those from the Ngorongoro CA are big but not near to the Crater area. The fact that even lions like kalamas were lucky to enter the crater sometimes shows how strong the males are there. In the dry seasons the lions seem to be slightly leaner in terms of fatpercentage but still impressive. I mean those that live in the crater and not the ones that visited the crater for a short time...

Yes, sorry, in the middle of the debate some hard words my arise, but it maybe be because English is not my main language, but believe me, I am not upset.

Thank you for the studies, so again, necesary food intake for great cats, specificall lions and tigers, will be calculated between 4-6 kg for females and 7-8 kg for males. You will see it in any wild cat book. In fact, as far I know, that is the daily amount that most zoos manage. Here in Guatemala they feed lions and tigers with 5 kg for females and 7 kg for males, divided in two meals, one in morning and one in night.

The original figure for tigresses in Nepal is 140 with a sample of 19, but that includes recaptures. If we use only the known 7 adult weights (of 8) is of 145 kg. And we need to take in count that some subadult females (4) already weighed like adult ones (3 of them over 120 kg). So that is why excluding the 14 kg the average is about 130 kg empty.

Personally I think that tigers will fail in Africa with a harsh introduction, all predators are social there and the leopards survive because they are sneaky and can claimb trees. Cheetahs suffer a lot and lions/hyenas/Lycaons had constant competition. Tigers do not had that, they may compite with wolves, dholes and leopards, but they normally dominate all of them. Crocs, snakes and bears are not direct competitors and tigers can kill them. So tigers evolved to be true kings by they own, but they don't had to compete with such a large amount of predators. Nature is very wise and that is why when the original Panthera specimen evolved in Africa, they adapted in the only two forms that could survive until our days (lions and leopards) and in Asia the tiger dominated (leopards were already prepared, as they evolved at the side of lions) but is tide to close forrests and water bodies with low prey base and low competition. This do not means that tigers are weaker than lions, after all tigers are doing well in the reserves from "Saves China's Tigers" and trive even in the open habitat, but eventually tigers would need to change to survive in Africa, and that can be done only with time (which may take several decades, if not more...). Tigers are very social actually, with tigresses living in clusters and all of them are related, like a lionesses pride that is scatered in they own personal space. Male tigers respect tigresses when they had cubs and may even wait for they turn and play with they cubs. So tigers had all the capacity to be social like lions, but in Asia is uneconomical. The hole last chapter in Dr Sunquist document of 1981 is very ilustrative in these points, plus the books of Valmik Thapar, which I had in my library.

Via personal communication with Dr Packer, he told me that they had never published any information about Crater lions, but that he remember that that the biggest and smallest chest girth for males in that population is of 143 cm and 120 cm respectivelly, with an average of c.130 cm. This is close to other Southern African populations with similar prey rich habitats. Until someone did actually weight those lions (like the tigers of Kaziranga) all will be only speculations.

I personally think a chest of 130cm in generall isnt average especially talking about a whole population. Did Packer record a chest of 143cm? Or was it 134 cm? I remember reading both numbers. The average lion of around 200 kg has an average chest girth of around 125 cm.

Exactly because of those reasons tigers cant survive in africa. Alone a tiger has little to no chance and low survival ability and needs a lot of food. Unless they come "along" with lions a bit (some alliances or mating with lions). But that means bad news for male tigers most of the time.

Also i was checking some weights recently and found some infos about that 272 kg lion from Namibia(Etosha), he was at the stage of death before being killed. I thought it would be interesting for many here(Will post it on a different thread). This male lion was like Ximpoko the forefather of a huge male lion coalition (Probably even bigger than the birimingham boys).

He had a paw diameter of 23cm! And here the full stor of him explained! (Original language is dutch): http://peterjasie.co.za/wallie-els.html

Quote:My first acquaintance with Etosha is in the 60s / 70s with the legendary Roy Sterley, working at the Anderson reception gate on the way to the Okaukuajo camp.

He impressed me with his courtesy, charm and gallant attitude, especially towards ladies by lighting a small flower for them and saying: "A beautiful flower for a beautiful lady".

He was an excellent shooter with a revolver and deadly with a knife. His training ground was his own private shooting range just outside the gate. Every year tons brought him the empty beer and soft drink cans seeing that there was always a shortage of him for target shooting.

It is said that on one occasion a motorist hit him and before he hit the ground, his revolver was out of its sheath and he was ready to shoot.

People may have called him a "showman", but I found him a remarkably respected and true gentleman.

So over time I got to know Barnebi de la Batt, Polla Swart, Stoffel Rocher and many others, as well as the old Phalaborites like GP and his sister Fanie le Roux, Schalk van der Sand and their families, and so I learned about the “ lion parties ”held at Leeubron.

There was a herd of lions with the male named Castor in command. He won the position after defeating his brother Pollux in a fight over a female, possibly Isabella. Castor was a majestic beast and had a hanging lip left over from the battle. This was probably the most photographed herd of lions in the world.

Every Wednesday and Saturday evening a goat was shot and taken to Leeubron where it was hooked to a chain, one point of which was cemented in the ground, and then driven away.

Castor and his herd then started with the festival and sightings of tourists who were then allowed in ten cars (at 10 Shillings- R1.00 per car) at the festival.

Stoffel Boucher tells me the following:

One night a newly appointed official asked if he could control the lion festival. Permission was granted to him and on arrival there he stopped and did not hook the chain but climbed out and sat on the hood and took out his documentation to check the cars' registration numbers so as to see if everyone had paid.

The spectators tried to get his attention but he did not mind. He then climbed down to walk backwards to hook the chain. The reason why the spectators wanted to draw his attention was that Castor had already jumped up and was eating. With a growl in his face the official fell backwards and with one leap he jumped through his window, into the vehicle.

Much later he shouted at Mynhardt Blom: "What are we doing now and how do I get out of this dilemma? !!"

With the help of Blom and his VW Beatle, they then managed to get Castor off the bowl and hook the chain so the festival could continue.

Jack van der Spuy tells me the following:

One night he decides to inspect the lion festival. Arriving there, he finds the man in control full of blood in his face and clothes. Upon inquiry, the official explained that the passengers of an eleventh car, who did not pay, became aggressive with him
when he tried to send them back and a fight broke out. The lions came to see what was going on and they had to flee in their cars. After the lions returned to the prey, the fight between and official and the tourist resumed. Jack sent the official back and sorted out the extra tourists himself.

So there can probably be a lot of anecdotes coming up.

These festivals were stopped by Jymie Ebedis. He felt it was unnatural and the lions would no longer be able to adapt well in the wild. Many people were also unhappy because the lions were not there every Wednesday and Saturday either. However, it remains the free nature.

Castor is getting old and Stoffel saw one day, when he passed by Leeubron, this beloved, once majestic animal l and was dying by the water. There was a swarm of foxes just waiting for him to die. Stoffel went to Okaukuajo to fetch his gun and witnesses to rescue the animal from its suffering. The post-mortem examination revealed that he had a fever due to pneumonia.

Giel Visser and Pieter Buys were told to make a plaster cast of the forepaw. The print was later cast in the form of an ashtray to sell to raise funds. I had the privilege of being able to buy one of the ashtrays. There may also be a printout for the research station at Okaukuajo. The skin has been the jewel in Polla Swart's office in Windhoek for many years.

Our radio amateurs have a local talk radio that can contact widely through amplifiers and hehalers. So I listen with one and a half ears to a few people in the Pietersburg area. I then heard a young doctor tell of the beautiful gift given to him by one of his patients. It was a print of a lion's trail in the shape of an ashtray measuring 12cm in diameter.

According to their conversation, I could deduce that they were under the impression that it was a massive big one. I got up and went to measure Castor's. It was 23cm compared to their 12cm. I figured that because 23 is almost 2 x 12, I would just shrink it to 19cm.

At the first opportunity, I break into the conversation and tell them my story as outlined above. The doctor then responded as follows:

First, he compliments me on my beautiful story, telling me I am privileged to be able to come to such places and to have such special experiences. He reckons that in his consulting room, directly behind him against the wall, hangs a trophy from an impala head. A strange thing happened, when I mentioned the dimensions of my ashtray's track, the goat started crying and tears dripped down his shoulder.

He is the forefather of the Leeubron Coalition (nowadays located in Kruger) and died 1963 in Etosha. Here are the pictures of him:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/64920366...675261640/