Modern Weights and Measurements of Wild Lions

[SpinoRex]

(02-15-2022, 12:06 AM)Pckts Wrote: @SpinoRex 

Quote:Beside the explanation there is no doubt a solitary cat will eat significantly more than a pride male when they have a dead carcass. The problem is most solitary lions wont survive in africa.

This is incorrect, a Pride male will eats his fill just like a solitary cat. On top of that, they have far more access to food that they don't have to hunt themselves.
Generally a kill that isn't tree stashed is going to be scavenged as soon as the big cat leaves. 

Quote:But what after that? Then the pride will eat and therefore there will be less meat available overall for the male lion(s). I think you could guess how much adult females, subadults will eat from the carcass.

If it's a large enough to where the cat can come back to feed on it for multiple days then that is an advantage for the solitary cat but it's only good for a couple of days and the solitary cat once gorged is generally uninterested after that. Not to mention, like solitary cats, Coalition males will also guard large kills and keep others away if they desire. 

Quote:Nonterretorial males killed more frequently adult bufallos, which also contributed to the available meat. I dont have to tell you that there is a significant difference when a whole pride have a bufallo and a lone lion or a small coalition have a bufallo. Also when you look at it some solitary lions are really massive(its rare) but those 2-3 lion coalitions are really heavy. At least heavier than most pride males but that isnt a problem. 

Probably because they're forced to prey on them since pride males territory encompasses a wider variety of animals which is why they chose the territory to defend in the first place. Not to mention they have the help of the entire pride which will also contribute to a wider variety of prey items. And since the table posted by you doesn't mention how this data was obtained, I'm guessing scat with occasional carcass viewing which wouldn't have anything to do with what the Pride males were actually hunting as opposed to what they are eating. Since it's already been discussed how they usurp pride kills, this makes total sense for them to have a larger variety. 

And no, non territorial males aren't heavier than pride males. If you have to mention it being "rare" that means you already know that isn't the case outside of an occasional outlier which would have more to do with it being a large, young male who's size will only increase once he takes over a pride. It's pretty simple, pride holding males do better than nomadic ones. 

Quote:You believe a (imaginable) solitary lion will not eat more than a lion with a pride? Also it means a solitary lion will not eat more than a pride male when he has a whole carcass for himself right? Note these are nonterretorial males and not solitary lions with a terretory.
 
Such nonterretorial males as i said wont be sucessfull (with some exceptions). Many scavengers and deadly enemies with the likes of hyenas and of course lion prides. They have not a own place. The reason why most of them dont make it alone (in Madikwe for example)

I believe a solitary Lion will not eat more than a pride Lion throughout it's life. It's not really debatable since it's already specified how they lose body condition. And Hyenas aren't "deadly enemies," they are little threat to a pride and no threat to a coalition. Yes they can usurp from a small number of females but this is rare. Other Lions on the other hand are definitely a threat  which is why having a back up is so important. Something non territorial males don't have unless they form coalition and if that becomes the case they don't stay non territorial for long, they generally overtake a pride once capable. 

Quote:So you see some nomadic lions like Kalamas, Ximpoko/Mabande, Mabande/Old Birmingham Male. Also i find it hard to believe that its a coincidence that nearly all record sized males were not pride males but nomadic ones (with some having a alliance).

Exactly which "record" sized males are you talking about?
The problem is that these recent claims from private reserves aren't reliable and of course have led to quite a bit of misinformation. The real data we have certainly don't back that claim, comparing Timbavati Lion weight claims to Smuts actual Kruger weights for instance is a huge stretch. You must take into account the validity of the source as well as the details presented. 

And even the males you mentioned still had coalition partners and prides. You seem to think that these males are permanent fixtures in prides but that's not how it works. In fact a lot of them may even have multiple prides. Pride males come and go as they please with the pride, they still patrol, they generally aren't going to be with the pride unless mating or scavenging their kill. 

It comes down to survival of the fittest.
Males #1 concern is breeding, it's their primal drive and they can only do that with females. Females live in prides and thus the males must rule them, the strongest males rule these prides until stronger males come in and take over. These prides live in territories that produce the most prey which is why they chose to raise cubs there. 

Quote:In terms of power the lion if serious doesnt even have to move from its place(2-3 lionesses in a serious mode are enough to overwhelm a male lion)

2/3 Lioness will not displace a pride male, in fact I've seen single pride males run off 10-12 Lioness from kills. There is no question, the male decides when he's done and if others can feed. 

Quote:while a tiger is solitary and when having a terretory will be most of the time heavier than a pride male lion. Though im interested how tigers are doing it as nonterretorial cats.

Like any non territorial cat, they'll not do as well since the territories that possess the most prey and females are ruled by larger males. They'll need to live on the outskirts and buffer areas to put on mass and gain skill then possibly they'll come back to challenge but most of the time they are never seen again. 

Quote:A NT male lion who lives like a T male will have without any doubt a higher food intake than a T male. The difference was around 45% in food intake.

A NT can't like like a T male, this is the whole point. And it's why their whole drive is to rule a pride of their own.
Ruling a pride doesn't mean living with them 24/7 it just means the breeding rights and territory is theirs.

I dont have the time really to discuss unnecessary things as well im pretty concerned about your behavior in denying datas. I got the infos/sources regarding the weights of those heavy lions now. The study includes all types of preys (the one they killed themselves and pride kills) and its so detailed with large samples that i do not have to add anything to it. And the fact we are talking about solitary cats with no terretory should ring a alarm basically.

As i said using the datas and a bit of logical understanding should clear it. What you are mentioning is that what i mentioned (on average) having a safe live with a pride with not having much more meat than the MDR but not more less. So a bit more consistent.

*Now regarding the weights*

The males Ximpoko and Mabande (both nomads) were collared and weighed by the Leopard research Project and Ximpoko later confirmed by the reserve headquarter and ecologist(scientist) who was the supervisor including the vets. Im especially more concerned when you are saying that its stretched. Because lions of 260 kg (5.5 years old, normal length) where weighed out of a sample of 15 and even one of 272 kg withoutbeing gorged as i know.

About the males from Madikwe. Well the job was done at the end by contacting the reserve management/HQ , which revealed that Kwande was estimated and actually the batia males was the heaviest lion weighed there. (Still waiting for robs email)

So according to you as the heaviest lion for kenyan lions was 204 kg from Smuts data the 237 kg one and 272 kg (both scientific) are also not reliable. You can have doubts, which i can clearly understand for any weight of that class (no matter scientific...) but claiming them as not reliabile isnt based on anything. Reply