The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[Shadow]

(11-04-2018, 07:26 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(11-02-2018, 04:36 PM)Spalea Wrote: About #185: you put the dogs and the panthera felidae(s) on the same classification level  as the dogs. Why not ? It's clear for me there is not one single specy of what we call dog. You take together a shepherd dog and a terrier dog, nothing happens... The dogs are considered by the scientists as a group called "canis lupus familiaris", this group and the "canis lupus" group forming a part of the canidae(s), I presume...

That's logic !

The example of @Shadow about the dogs, in fact, shows a contrary case from that of lions. If you take the skulls of all the dogs, you will see incredible diferences, some even grossly differente that looks like completelly different animals, some dogs can be clasify as "shepards", others like "bulldogs", etc. etc. However if you check the genes, there is no diferences between all of them and they are the same animal in the DNA, even including the Dingo and the New Guinea singing dog the variation is minimum. There is still a debate about the clasification of the domestic dogs, those that clasifed them as Canis familiaris based in the morphology and those that clasified them Canis lupus familiaris based in mDNA. At the moment there is still no consensus. However, the DNA of domestic dogs is somewhat different for wolves (suggesting the "subspescies" or maybe "species" status), and it seems that the "wolf" that gived origin to the modern dog is extinct as the modern wolf have no direct relation with the dog. 

The case of the modern lion and the cave "lion" is somewhat diferent. The morphological studies shows a cacophony of events for Panthera fossilis/spelaea, the first studies showed that were simple "lions", next ones showed they were "tigers", latter we return to lions but like a "subspecies" and latter, they had enough diferent characteristics that they are a completely diferent species and this is the way that modern studies are following, specially the Russian scientists. For Panthera atrox, the first study or Merriam and Stock (1932) showed lion and jaguar characteristics, latter it was ignored and it was clasify as "lion" by Harrington (1996), latter Christiansen & Harris (2009) made a study showed that had jaguar characteristics and was clasify as giant "jaguars", however the last morphological study of Knight & Wallace (2013), which is the most complete at date, showed that Panthera atrox had lion and tiger characteristics, which suggest a a diferent species. Interesting the Wikipedia "fans" ignored all the studies and got stuck with Harrington (1996) and its derived studies and popular books.

On the genetic side, the first study of Burget et al. (2005) showed that they were genetically different from the lions but did not clarified if they were just a clade, subspecies or diferent species. Latter Barnett et al. (2009) specify that these "lions" were part of the lion "group" (so they are "lions" in lato sensu) but a diferent "clade" (now there are not lions in stricto sensu), which means that they could be clasify as subspecies at the bring of been species for they own, specially by the fact that "lions" from Beringia did not intermixed with the "lions" from USA for thousands of years, despite the fact that there were several events were the bison and horses from USA did intermix with the Eurasian/Alaska populations, so why these "lions" did not do the same? Finally Barnett et al. (2016) did clarify the issue with genetic tests on tissue and the result is that the cave "lion" and the modern "lion" are diferent species, they followed completelly diferent evolutionary ways and separte each other about 1.89 million years ago. 

About the pelage, the color and density is diferent from that of the modern lions, and we must not forget that some cave paintings shows cave "lions" with faint stripes in the back (Harrington, 1996), something not seen in lions at all. Also, the pelage of the cave "lion" cubs is similar to that of the adult modern lions, which is contrary to the modern lion cubs, which is similar to that of leopards. This suggests that the cave "lion" cubs were different from the modern lion cubs. This is important as the puma, the only other cat of one color coat, also have cubs with spotts. It seems that the cave "lion" cubs were striless or spotless since the begining, a characteristics of its own species.

In conclution, while the morphological studies did not provide a clear view yet, the genetic studies follow a line that separate the cave "lion" from the modern lion more and more each time, which help to conclude that the Panthera fossilis/spelaea and Panthera atrox are not lions Panthera leo, but species of its own and probably new studies will show even more diferences as the DNA used will be more complete.

Yes I know, that many things aren´t simple at all. Still we have these classifications and scientists change things time to time when they see it fit and there is large consensus. I of course understand how you approach this matter, but my point of view is somewhat different and I don´t see yet any reason to think otherwise. I am waiting with interest how things develop in future. I told how I see situation overall. I find it interesting to see what new information brings on the table in future and do we have still these species considered as lions or not. If in future we have information confirming some species from same progenitor looking and behaving same way, then I have no problem if they also in future are called lions. 

I can see your point, but your information is same as can be found from research reports naturally. I can respect your conclusion even though I have my own conclusion. It happens when people look at something from different perspective. But as said, I told how I see situation and am waiting at least a few years if there is then more information than there is today. With interest :) Reply