The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[peter]

This thread is a good one, Grizzly. There's no question that you and Tigerluver do a great job on Pleistocene big cats. I enjoy reading threads in which extinct big cats feature.   

When you asked for an opinion about the size of the owner of the enormous bones found in central Europe, I first decided to read the notes I had made during discussions with amateur specialists many years ago. I added 'amateur' to make it clear that their ideas had not been tested in any way. This means that it's hard to say if these ideas are valid or not. I do know I consider them as very well-informed and dedicated specialists. Their opinion on Pleistocene European lions is very outspoken in that most think that they could have been the largest big cats ever.    

As they didn't agree on a guesstimate, I had no other option but to use data of big cats shot and measured in the last two centuries. I used tigers, because of the number of records. The results of the calculations I did were extrapolated to Pleistocene lions.

I know the method used is a poor one. I also know that the assumptions were incorrect. In spite of that, the results of the calculation can be considered as a start. If the Pleistocene European lions would have compared to Cooch Behar tigers shot a century ago, males would have averaged just over 600 pounds and reached a length of just over 11 feet 'over curves'. Exceptional animals could have reached 780-860 pounds. This regarding male lions with a greatest total skull length of 450-460 mm. (not those approaching 500 mm.).

The remark on canine length you made is important. If Pleistocene European lions would have compared to lions today in the canine department and produced canines similar in length to those of the largest Pleistocene tigers, chances are they would have outsized these tigers by a margin. Lions have, and most probably always had, shorter canines than tigers. A Pleistocene lion with canines which compared to those of the largest tigers, for this reason, had to be larger. The question is how much larger. 

The largest tigers I'm aware of are the Pleistocene Indonesian tigers. The bones of the Pleistocene lion found in Europe, however, were larger and more robust. If some Pleistocene tigers really exceeded 400 kg. (883 pounds), chances are the owner of the lion bones found in central Europe, as you suggested, could have reached 1000 pounds or even more. 

The people mentioned above (I consider them as authorities, which, regarding extinct big cats, is not true for yours truly) concluded Pleistocene lions differed from the lions of today in that they were not only longer and taller (by about 10-20%), but relatively more robust. This, they thought, was needed to get to the agility, speed and power needed to hunt some of the extra-large herbivores that surrounded them. It's a guess only, but it is possible they could have been an improved version of the tigers in northeastern India today. Assam tigers are not longer or taller than average, but more robust and big-skulled. With 'big', I mean they have relatively wide and heavy skulls for their length. Robustness seems to be an adaption to very big prey animals. 

Before posting the calculations (referring to the previous post), I took a tape and made a few points on a wall in order to get an idea of the size of Pleistocene European lions. I was flabberghasted by what I saw, but have to admit that the information you and Tigerluver posted more or less fits the picture that emerges from the bones. Reply