The Cave Lion (Panthera spelaea and Panthera fossilis)

[GuateGojira]

(11-18-2022, 04:52 AM)LandSeaLion Wrote: “Size comparison of Ukrainian lions and the extant southern lion. a. Pathera spelaea spelaea (♀) from Kryshtaleva Cave; b. Panthera spelaea fossilis (♂) from Sambir; c. Panthera leo persica (♂) from Mayaki; d. Pathera spelaea spelaea (♂) from Chernihiv; e. Panthera leo melanochaita (Smith, 1842) (♀) from Kruger National Park; f. Panthera leo melanochaita (♂) from Kruger National Park. Shown to the same scale. Drawings by W. Gornig.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Their estimate for the truly enormous Sambir lion (top-right in the drawing above) is upwards of 500kg - however, there are no details on how they calculated this estimate. Its projected body mass varied wildly between different skeletal and dental indicators (over 900kg for cranial or post-cranial, vs ~350-440kg for m1L/m1LxB):

”An estimate for the Sambir lion (based on calcaneus length) looks less reliable than that inferred from m1 size. However, the latter is probably underestimated and the Sambir lion might have had a body mass exceeding 500 kg. It is unlikely that this value represents the extreme upper mass range, as in the case of record-sized individuals of living felids. Such exceptional specimens are too rare to appear in the fossil record (Christiansen and Harris 2009; Wheeler and Jefferson 2009).”

The size of the Sambir lion is greatly exagerated here, no cat will weight more than 450 kg (the Smilodon populator mark) and 500 kg is out of question, that is for sure, and probably the 400 kg will be the mark for the biggest Panthera specimens.

I was checking the document and they based they conclutions in a single lower molar 1 (dentitions as we know, is not a good size/weight predictor). The greatest length of this lower m1 is of 34.7 mm (which is from where the autors are basing the body mass and also body size), now compare it with the biggest lower m1 for Panthera atrox which is of 33.9 mm, and for Panthera tigris acutidens which is of 31.2 mm (Ngandong tiger and Pleistocene Bornean tiger had probably bigger dentition, but as we know, lions and lion-like cats had comparativelly bigger dentition than similar sized tigers), the difference is not as extreme as we could think, and none of these two giant cats surpassed the 360 kg. Also, we need to remember that dentition is very variable, specially in lion and lion-like cats, which has been showed in previous studies. So, while this single lower molar 1 suggest a big specimen, it could be no larger than the biggest Panthera atrox from America (which is already a great feat).

The estimated body size of 140 cm in height and 250 - 270 cm seems exagerated, remember that the largest Panthera atrox was estimated at 125 cm in height and 250 cm in head-body, so the Sambir lion could be about the same size (34.7 vrs 33.9 mm is nothing), but not as long as 270 cm, that is out of question. Also, check that while Marciszak et al. (2022) estimate a shoulder heigh of 130 cm for the Aze specimen, Schouwenburg (2011), using a reliable comparison method with real specimens as surrogates got a shoulder height of 109.3 cm for the same specimen, about 16% less than the other estimation; please check that Marciszak and team do not explain what method used to estimate the size, and also they did not use the method of Schouwenburg (2011) because they probably don't even knew about it.

In conclution, based in the evidence, intraespecific variation, previous related specimens and different methods, the body size and weight estimated by the Sambir lion by Marciszak et al. (2022) is greatly exagerated, and probably weighed around 370 - 380 kg (at the best), and a body size about the same as the similarly sized Panthera atrox (heigh of 125 cm and head-body of 250 cm, in maximum values). Reply