The Great Apes

[The Panther]

(12-19-2019, 12:25 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 12:25 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 04:32 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 04:08 AM)The Panther Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 02:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 01:42 AM)The Panther Wrote:

(12-18-2019, 12:10 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-17-2019, 11:18 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(12-17-2019, 09:48 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(12-17-2019, 06:09 PM)The Panther Wrote: @Shadow @Sully
The silverback in question Isabukuru was actually a pretty big male, in fact, people have mentioned his exceptional size for his young age. He unfortunately died at only 24 years old.
This is him from a different angle. He was 22 years old here. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://gorillasafarisinuganda.blogspot.com/2017/04/a-tribute-to-silverback-isabukuru.html?mhim.
"Even as a young black back, he was famous because of his gigantic size despite his tender age and very popular among females which he broke away with from Cantsbee's group in 2007, and started his own group at just the age of 14 taking three females with him."
Last paragraph in the link.

It can be big what comes to gorillas, but that photo didn´t give realistic perspective. Typical photo exaggerating size of an animal. As I said, if there would be a brown bear right next to that gorilla, it would look more like child looks like right next to adult. 160-200 kg isn´t same as 300-400 kg. Just like some 50-60 kg woman 5-10 meters behind a silverback gorilla looks to be even smaller than she is. That was my point, not to say if that gorilla was small of big gorilla, when compared to other gorillas.

Yes, but no one even mentioned big 400 kg bears at all, it's a fact that he was a huge gorilla, and it's accepted by everyone who observed him throughout the years. No one here thinks 160-200 kg is the same as 300 kg or 400 kg, though I'm pretty sure he was a lot larger than 200 kg. Maybe the example Spalea used didn't do Justice to Isabukuru's great size, sure, but I just wanted to mention that he was indeed considered a very large male, especially for his age.

No, but it was for most people a random photo of a random gorilla and said, that huge gorilla. From that photo it wasn´t possible to know if that gorilla was average, big or huge. I pointed that out and also used bears as one example to remind what is reality. Many times silverback gorillas are in photos alone or with another gorilla(s). And they look massive. Of course an animal 160-200 kg is big. What comes to possible 250 kg gorillas, I do believe that some of the biggest ones can be when old and obese, but I don´t believe that it would be something we see in every photo. Even gorillas over 200 kg are usually considered as very big or exceptional individuals. There aren´t too many confirmed gorillas over 200 kg after all.

In many threads here have been said many times, from a random photo without anything good to compare with, it´s impossible to say how big some animal is. Any average gorilla can be made to look like a giant if that is wanted by the person taking photo. If it´s wanted to prove that some animal is really big or exceptional with a photo, then that photo should have something side by side with that animal. So many "huge" animals have been in reality normal sized, when more information have been found. We have had here many similar cases with photos of big cats.

I want to point out, that when some gorilla looks like huge, reality is with silverbacks 160-200 kg. And maybe in some rare cases more. And height in average, when standing somewhere around 170 cm, so a sitting gorilla isn´t taller than a woman standing. People who know animals and are objective of course know this, but there are always some people, who can be fooled. So it´s good to keep things realistic.

We've pretty much went over this before. There isn't enough information on all the populations of wild gorillas to conclude anything, but it's quite clear they vary greatly in size (mainly weight) depending on which population you look at. Eastern gorillas can greatly surpass Western gorillas in size, so 200 kg might be very large for your average Western gorilla population, but what says it's the same thing for Eastern gorillas? This is why I rely on comparisons like the ones I did before, because it at least gives me a good idea of a large gorilla's size range, which is very helpful when we have nothing to go on. So this is how I estimate, with comparisons. I think it's very dismissive to say anything over 200kg is rare, especially when there isn't enough information to go on, apart from small samples and measurements here and there. Who's to say that represents all populations.

I just say how I see it. I haven´t seen enough information to believe, that 200 kg would be something what gorillas would be all the time. I have seen only some possible cases in wild and that isn´t enough for me to make hasty conclusions, that it would happen all the time. If you believe that 200 kg is like nothing for gorillas, then we do disagree clearly.

It´s one thing to speculate and talk about possibilities, another to talk about confirmed and verified information. Multiple sources give for gorillas weight range 160-200 kg, when talking about males. Of course if you have some study giving different kind of figures, please post it here. New information is always welcome.

And when looking at main point in this. From photos we can´t give too good estimations, when there is nothing to compare with. Of course we can see if gorilla looks robust or obese and things like that. But when looking at photo of one gorilla, which is for instance known to be big and then looking a photo of another gorilla looking to be as big... it has to be remembered, that other one can be for instance shorter and much lighter in reality. And that height difference makes it look like to be as robust and big in photo. Photos are not good if wanting to prove something about size, when there is not something to compare with, which is there side by side.

I never stated 200 kg was nothing, though I do believe weights well over 200 kg are far more likely to occur in the Eastern populations than in Western populations. None of those sources mention how many individuals were measured in each and every population, nor do they mention the ages of the individuals in question. My problem is that they're not substantial enough to conclude anything, and they're hardly ever specific. To me it doesn't seem logical to limit the sizes of Eastern gorillas to just 200 kg max, especially considering how well fed and settled they are throughout their lives. For decades a silverback Eastern gorilla will consume huge quantities of vegetation daily, his life is generally relaxed and sedentary, which should definitely pile on the lbs, unless you believe Eastern males magically stay well under 200 kg for 20-30 years of their adult lives.

In my comparisons, I used gorillas that have been weighed, so it's a lot easier to estimate, I also made sure to use images of them in similar positions so it can help give you perspective. The gorillas I used were 602 lbs M'bongo (273 kg) and 652 lbs Samson (296 kg), so I wasn't using random gorillas in my comparisons. From there I estimated a size difference of 50 to less than 30 lbs (22 to 14 kg) between M'bongo and the largest wild males and 100 to less than 80 lbs with Samson (45 to 36 kg), so I was able to safely put them within a size range due to these comparisons, and i'm pretty satisfied with them. You can check them out if you want.

I have seen speculations here. I have speculated myself and I keep it possible, that some exceptional and somewhat obese gorillas can be even around 250 kg. But since experts say, that eastern populations can weight up to 220 kg and usually weight range in average has been said to be approximately 160-200 kg, I don´t see yet any reason to believe otherwise. Of course you and others can speculate, that´s ok. @Sully pointed out what was wrong in that one photo which was shared with words about huge gorilla. I replied to it because photos like that can fool some people, especially kids. Good to remind time to time, if a lot of speculation, that what experts say and in what way photos can exaggerate sizes.

Photos alone to use in comparisons, when different gorillas are in different places are very problematic for the reasons I already mentioned. That topic has been discussed, as said, countless times in different threads. How many 300 kg tigers and lions people have seen in photos during years... and then found out, that 220-250 kg in reality, it´s good to remember before seeing 250 kg gorillas here and there all the time. But here is no problem as long as speculations are clearly speculations and not trying to claim, that talking about confirmed facts, when speculating.

Sorry for the late response, but I needed some sleep.
OK, we're literally going in circles here. Like I said before, all I need is substantial evidence to show me how many gorillas were measured in each and every population, I also need the ages of the individuals in question for me to buy into a range of only 160-200 kg. I need more than just expert words, I need extensive evidence, otherwise we're just beating a dead horse with this conversation. My comparisons show me the size range of the biggest wild males due to how similar in build they are to the heaviest captive gorillas, and it makes sense, because 20-30 years as adults consuming large quantities of vegetation and living relatively sedentary lives, should be enough to make them similar to the biggest of captive gorillas, which should put them well above 200 kg in maximum sizes. To me limiting their size to a range of only 41 kg (160 to 200 kg) makes no sense, unless you believe they magically stay within that range after decades of living such a lifestyle.

Mountain gorillas unlike big cats don't starve (unless sick), they don't need to be successful to eat when their food is literally all around them. I can understand limiting lions within a 200 kg or less range because their lifestyle makes it almost impossible to be very well fed all the time, after all they need to hunt. Them being well fed requires constant success, and most of them are hardly that successful, hence why it limits their size. So again, mountain gorillas don't have this problem, so why are we even limiting them the same way we should limit a lion? Because it simply doesn't apply to them at all. 

I understand you like to favor the words of experts, but I've seen experts claim lions casually weigh up to 250 kg, or Amur tigers routinely being 13 feet long even though they're pretty much the same length as Bengal tigers. This is why I want substantial evidence so it can prove these claims, not just what anyone said, unless it's someone who measured a bunch of gorillas from each and every population, and also got their ages too. So I get what you're saying, you're only going by what's out there, but I need more than just what experts say, especially when they don't show substantial evidence when they say it. Sorry for the long comment.

I don´t know which experts say, that lions would weigh up to 250 kg casually or that Amur tigers would be routinely 13 feet long. But I haven´t seen any gorilla experts to say, that gorillas would be up to 250 kg, even though I think, that some rare individuals might be that big.

I just reminded about confirmed facts and what experts say when looking at speculations. And about it, that photos are very unreliable to use when estimating weights, especially when there is nothing to compare with some individual. That has been seen so many times, that people make big mistakes and often exaggerate sizes and weights. My opinion is, that with gorillas that is very easy to happen too. Gorillas are robust, but often quite short. When we imagine a man 170 cm tall and 150 kg, he could be made look like a giant in a photo, easily. Just the same thing with a gorilla or any animal. There are photos taken from hunted wolves in which they look like 200-250 kg giants, same time we all know, that 70-80 kg wolf is huge already.

But as I have said, you are free to speculate and give reasoning why you estimate some gorillas to be very heavy. But since this is, as lately mentioned time to time, forum named wildfact, criticism is present here too. Now it was first about one photo, but since you wanted to discuss more, I mentioned some remarks I have made. I tend to be careful when discussions start to mention record breaking numbers, but there is not enough proof. 

No need to go circles, people have seen what you write and what I write. Everyone can check studies for instance from researchgate and check other sources etc.

I understand what you're saying, that's why I was careful with my comparisons and estimations. Those rare over 250 kg individuals would mainly be old silverbacks, though there are some potential young ones too, like Isabukuru for example, he was built more like the big old males than a typical male his age. So males like Isabukuru are definitely exceptional young silverbacks to say the least. I understand that people make mistakes when scaling, but trust me, I did try to be extra careful when doing this, because I don't like far fetched estimates either. Reply