The Great Apes

[Shadow]

(08-21-2019, 07:46 AM)The Panther Wrote:

(08-21-2019, 12:51 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-21-2019, 12:14 AM)The Panther Wrote:

(08-20-2019, 05:22 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-20-2019, 04:45 PM)The Panther Wrote:

(08-18-2019, 07:58 AM)Shadow Wrote: About gorilla weights and what it looks like.

This is Shabani, famous gorilla. These photos are from 2010, when it was 13 years old and told to have been 190 kg (419 lbs)

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.higashiyama.city.nagoya.jp/blog/2010/08/post-3390.html

This video is from 2015, that time 180 kg (397 lbs)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33283710/buff-silverback-gorilla-drawing-crowds-of-women-to-japanese-zoo

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Height is said to be 180 cm (5 ft 11 in), that is from wikipedia. For some reason weight was mentioned in many places, but height was with quick checking only in wikipedia. Maybe someone finds better source for height too. Anyway this might give some perspective, what a big gorilla looks like.

From what I've seen, there are definitely wild gorillas that are larger than him, but I'm sure you already knew that. The largest gorillas I've ever seen were always old male Eastern gorillas (Mountain & Grauer's gorillas), though some prime males do get pretty large themselves, normally the more experienced ones. Like I said, information on wild gorilla sizes are too scarce to show just how large they can get in absolutes, so there's a good chance the very large gorillas, pretty much like the old males I've seen haven't even been measured. All we have is an exceptionally tall male that was said to be about 6 ft 4 or 5 last time I checked, but I'm convinced the heaviest Eastern males are yet to be weighed.

Shabani is a great specimen, he has some good size on him and he's pretty well built for a zoo gorilla, but he pales compared to the biggest Eastern gorillas we've seen. He's still a great captive specimen regardless.

I know, that some gorillas can be even 200 kg, but as far as I know also gorillas are heaviest in captivity. And this Shabani is bigger than average gorilla, it is after all 180 cm, about 6 feet tall. Taller than that are very rare based on all known and reliable information if I am not missing something.

I read just yesterday from book of Dian Fossey that 170 kg is usually as big as they get. And when she writes like that, it is quite strong statement. Not many have competence to claim, that she wouldn´t have no idea what she is talking about, don´t you think? :)

Any way, as in all animals, some exceptional individuals can be quite big. Like biggest know wild one, that was about 220 kg...  and tallest 6 ft 5 (had to edit this, I made a calculation mistake with cm and feet) tall or something like that. I have never seen claims about bigger than that or that there would be many even closely that big ones. I guess, that 150-170 kg is usually what big silverback weights in wild.

Shabani does not appear to be bigger than the typical Eastern gorilla, in fact, he seems about the same size if not leaner than most prime male Eastern gorillas I've seen, and he's definitely smaller than certain older Eastern gorillas. I feel like it's just a misconception that says only captive gorillas get extremely large, in fact, you'll find most older mountain gorillas surpassing many captive gorillas (not all) in sheer size and girth. Eastern gorillas are easily the most well fed of wild gorillas, and overtime they truly become monsters later on in life.

Here are some examples of huge older males 
 He's an Absolute Unit, lol
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/...34x430.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/...erback.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/p/467/af...7.jpg.webp

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dcb4_8iW0AACakf.jpg:large

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://live.staticflickr.com/8235/84679...0358_b.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://i1.wp.com/eastafricanjunglesafar...C480&ssl=1

*This image is copyright of its original author

 
Sad example here, but I couldn't get an image of him alive
http://d2ouvy59p0dg6k.cloudfront.net/img...pgoma2.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

Here are younger but still experienced silverbacks (in their prime)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1a/2e/2d/...fddd00.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://images.immediate.co.uk/productio...ze=620,413

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://dr93qnyg6oltl.cloudfront.net/wp-c...fLdLoe.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.animalspot.net/wp-content/up...orilla.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/2e/1a/...7ec3cc.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

http://www.kenpauley.net/wp-content/uplo...e-walk.jpg

*This image is copyright of its original author

There are more images I can use but this is enough. So Shabani is clearly not larger than these gorillas, nor are many other captive gorillas for that matter. Although there isn't enough evidence to truly confirm just how large they can get, it's quite evident that Eastern gorillas get very, very large, as seen especially with the older males.


Dian Fossey was a brilliant woman who was one of the pioneers in gorilla habituation, but that doesn't mean she knew every little detail about gorilla measurements with all due respect. Whose to say she even measured many gorillas to get that, she could've just repeated what was officially reported about gorillas in general. I seriously doubt she even cared much about their measurements, after all she was fighting to stop them from going extinct at the time, which unfortunately led to her untimely death. 


I understand what you're saying and you seem like a reasonable person, but I genuinely feel like there isn't enough to go on for gorillas, especially when we include the very large males. All I see are generalisations, despite the fact gorillas cleary differ in size depending on population, environment and age. Some are a lot more well fed than others it seems.

Photos alone aren´t the best way to judge sizes, when there isn´t something to what something can be compared to. But when thinking about that one gorilla, which was said to have been 267 kg and 183 cm tall. That doesn´t give to me impression about huge gorilla otherwise, but big belly. Of course some of that weight can be extra muscle too, but as photos you share are showing, some of those gorillas have pretty big bellies. Naturally obese animals always weigh more than others in normal weight range. I mean if looking at Shabani weighing 190 kg, it looks still pretty ok, fit. Put there 77 kg more and I doubt, that it could jump even half of that, what it did on video.

I am not saying, that there wouldn´t be some big boys, but I haven´t seen any sources claim, that gorillas would be routinely over 200 kg and photos you share aren´t proving too much. If there is a gorilla 170 cm tall and weighing for instance 170 kg, it can look huge too.

And what comes to Dian Fossey, she maybe didn´t knew everything, but I don´t think that she has in books too many wild guesses. If she say, that normally 170 kg is a big one, I believe her unless someone can provide good information about weighings proving something else. She was there and not only days or weeks in some random safari taking some photos. I think that even today she is considered one of the leading experts what comes to mountain gorilla physique, if not the leading expert.

This is same as with many animals, photos tell if some individual is slim, normal, robust or obese. But making statements about weights based on only photos tend to give very unreliable information. 

Imo, this isn´t about it, that there wouldn´t be some exceptional individuals. Question is how many and how big? Something else than photos is needed if wanting to prove something here.

I didn't make an estimation one time, in fact I was about to add that I wasn't going to make estimations here. My point was to show examples of very large wild Eastern gorillas, It was mainly to give perspective, not to declare it as average or super common for gorillas in general. The very large size however does seem to be more common in older males though, due to the long but well fed life they lived, but the old males are in the minority unfortunately. You asked how many are really large males, well there are several hundred mountain gorillas around, but females and younger males outnumber the dominant big males greatly, so there aren't many comparatively speaking. The same could be said for Grauer's gorillas also. Most males in the region are younger and inexperienced, a lot of them aren't even established silverbacks yet, so it will take time for most males to reach their full potential like the older males that came before them, but only time will tell.

I mentioned how Dian Fossey was a pioneer in gorilla habituation, I also mentioned how that was the death of her, so I know exactly what she did. I never said she guessed that weight, 
 I said she could've repeated what was officially reported for gorillas in general back then. So again with all due respect, just because she was close to them that doesn't mean she knew all their measurements, unless you have an account that can prove she constantly measured them, which would be a surprise to me if she did.

Oh and yes, there were a couple estimations for the gorillas I posted, but that's all they were. There's nothing really verified out there, I doubt they'd sedate a silverback for that information, due to the chaos it would cause in doing so, the whole group will start panicking.

It is true that estimations are what we have in many cases. Then comparing to it, that there is that one big boy, 195 cm tall and it was 219 kg, there is one quite good example about it, what is situation with a gorilla, when it is really big. Of course some photos show, that some smaller gorillas (tallness) are good to find food and they can gain weight. 

Naturally questions can be made and they are always made, when seeing something what feels odd. I underlined the experience of Fossey, because she really was there and is considered by many as the leading expert (not just one of the leading experts) what comes to these gorillas. So challenging what she writes in her books is possible, but that leads also to criticism. What do you really have and what you try to say?

So are you trying to say, that gorillas routinely are over 200 kg in their prime? Or are you saying, that there might be more 200 kg gorillas, that usually is thought?

There are also names like Walter Baumgärtel and George Schaller, when talking about gorillas, whose knowledge can be considered equal and partially maybe even more, than Fossey had. Baumgärtel especially as a pioneer of gorilla conservation is one very interesting person and author. Maybe it would be worth looking closer what these people have said. For instance Baumgärtel hosted in his hotel many people who were researching gorillas, including Fossey and Schaller among so many others. Pretty surely size of gorillas has been discussed more than once.

When current information based from studies of these and other highly respected people give information we have today, challenging that, if that is what you try to do is hard work. Naturally you can try, but you have to understand also, that without really good reasoning you have quite a mountain to climb. Many animals look very big in photos, when alone there . For instance a 150 kg gorilla, even 200 kg gorilla can look huge, until it is side by side with something even bigger. Let´s say 250-300 kg bear. That bear then again, as for instance Felix and Taquka photos show, looks like a cub when side by side with Kodiak bear, all of  these huge looking gorillas in these pictures would be dwarfed too side by side with Taquka, not to mention bear Peter the Great from same zoo with Taquka. But of course real question is, what would they look like side by side with a legit, lets say 180 kg gorilla.

So if trying to prove by photos, that some individual is really big, there need to be something to what it can be compared. That one gorilla in photos you shared for sure looked like a big gorilla and based on known information was such, I mean Senkwekwe, which was killed and then carried to the car. Also Guhonda is said to be a big one. 

If you mainly are saying, that there might be more big gorillas out there, than usually is believed, weighing in between 220-250 kg that doesn´t sound unreasonable, while proving is another thing. Then again if you are saying, that almost all gorillas would be that big, when in certain age, there we go to another level. If that would be the case, I (and many others) would except to find that claim with good reasoning also in some studies. 

Anyway interesting topic. If/when you have more information and reasoning, keep on posting. Reply